Is my son a snacker?

[JHBmom]

Hi everyone,

I am new to this board and I'm so happy I found it.  I didn't realize that I was going about everything wrong.  I was trying to follow the BW routine from the start but hit bumps in the road and totally lost control of what was going on.  So now I'm starting over

But my question for today is--is my son snacking if he is eating every two hours for 10 mins each feed (single-side feed)?  Could I be forcing him into this pattern due to lack of understanding of his needs?  Or could he have just gotten stuck in this pattern because of some bumps we hit previously with breastfeeding? 

So obviously this is making it very hard to get him on a routine because he wakes up after napping 30 mins and wants to feed.  Also, I can't extend my easy time because he's constantly eating.  This also happens at night so neither of us are getting any sleep.

If you have any advice I'd love to hear it.  Oh and my son is now 15 weeks. 

Thanks!
Nicole

[*Ali*]

Yes it does sound like he is snacking little and often. This can often happen in the beginning and especially if you have lots of NWs. This is because he is not quite hungry enough for a full feed when he wakes. This small feed then only keeps him full for a short time before he wants to eat again. Then because it hasn't been long since his last feed he only take a little again and so the cycle continues.
How long is he awake for before he falls asleep for his nap? 30 min naps can be a sign of overtiredness. Why don't you post your routine (inc NWs) in EAS format so we can see the timings of everything? You may need to tackle the short naps and the length of time between feedings.
Without seeing your EAS routine yet the best advice I can offer if for you to gradually increase the time between the first and second feeds of the day gradually. Then he should naturally take more at the 2nd feed and be able to go slightly longer until the 3rd etc. I would also work on increasing the amount he takes at each feed (esp. the 1st) by offering the breast again after burping and a nappy change. Then when he is done with the first offer the 2nd and see if he will take more that way.
Let us know how you get on.

[JHBmom]

Thanks so much for the reply.  I was wondering what NW stands for?  Sorry I'm new   

I've been trying to keep a log of his routine but I don't have good one to share because I give up about half-way through the day.  It's just so hard because every morning I wake hoping to start new but it is the same old song.  And it only seems to be getting worse.  When he turned 3 months he only woke one time at night to feed.  Then following his 3 month birthday he started the 2 hour feedings.  He's never really spent much time feeding but it wasn't until these last 3 weeks that he started eating every two hours.  It's just so hard and so frustrating.  I want to be positive but by the end of the day all I want to do is cry.

I feel like I need to just feed him before he sleeps so he can get in a decent nap.  But then I think about the routine and how good it can be so I keep trying.  I really don't know what to do.  I keep praying he'll just come around on his own because I just can't handle making him cry... especially if I think he's hungry.

[Khalam's Mama]

Don't worry we were feeding this often when we were that age because I hadn't discovered BW back then. But you will soon be able to get to a schedule you are happy with.
NW is night wakings. Have a look here for some others http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=51772.0
How old is your little one now? was he born at full term?
How long does he stay awake between naps? how do you put him down to sleep (rocking/in cot/feeding etc)
Maybe he hit the 3month growth spurt and and that is what affected his feedings and it got him in to the habit of eating more. Do You think you recognise the difference between his I'm hungry and I'm tired cries? This is where I fell down because I thought he was hungry and obviously you have to feed a hungry baby but DS still burrows and looks for the boobs when he is tired but if put in his cot will go straight to sleep so ovbiously he wasn't.

[JHBmom]

Thanks for the info!  Just recently he has started waking every 2 hours during the night to feed (or at least the is what I think he wants).  When I do feed him he typically falls right back to sleep.  I've tried to s/p rather than feed him and have been able to hold him off for an hour at most.  I keep trying to tell myself he will be fine not eating every two hours but then I doubt myself and feed him.  I have a hard time discerning his cries so this makes it hard.

He was born full-term and is a very healthy baby.  He doubled his weight by three months and is in the 90th percentile for length.  So he's a big baby for 15 weeks.  But he never really woke much at night before... usually would sleep 6 hours and then wake another 3 hours later. 

I feel like he did go through a growth spurt and has become use to the 2 hour schedule.  I just don't know how to break him of it without losing my mind and feeling like I'm hurting him.

He stays up about 1.5 hours in between naps.  I do think he's OT because he wakes so much at night and only naps about 30 mins.  At night we give him a bath, play some classical music, and read him a book before he goes to bed.  I also nurse him after the bath, which I know is not what BW recommends.  He has been so tired lately that he just passes out but then wakes up shortly after.  When he isn't OT he usually will just calm himself and fall asleep within a few minutes. 

It's just hard to get him past these bad habits when I'm so exhausted.  I know it'll be worth it in the end but when I'm exhausted and waking at night I sometimes can't even think about what I'm doing and will go straight to feeding him. 

I guess the main thing right now is getting his feeding back on track.  I just don't know how to do that when his routine can't extend past 2 hours since he wakes up hungry after napping 30 mins.

[Khalam's Mama]

It is so hard to be consistent at night isn't it. i would concentrate on getting his day how you want it and hopefully his night will sort itself.
I assume since you say he used to eat less frequently when he was smaller you have a good supply and his latch is ok?
Do you feed one side or both? Make sure he empties one breast fully so he gets all the high calorie hindmik to fill him up. If he does then offer the second to encourage him to take more at each feed.
Do you use a dummy or would you? When he seems hungry after 2 hrs could yo hold him off with a dummy even just for 10mins the first time and try to stretch it like that a little more each day?
Part of your problem is probably the short naps. Maybe if you could extend these then it would be easier to prolong the feeds. It is nearly impossible to keep to a long schedule if babe is awake and burning calories being OT. How do you get him down for naps? Does he go down easily?
Have you tried anything in particular to get a longer nap? If he always wakes at 30mins you could try going in at about 25mins and stiring him slightly (stroking the cheek for example) and then hold a hand on his chest/back until he is back in a deep sleep. Yopu will reset his sleep cycle so he can transition to the next. This worked very well with my DS and my nephew at around this age which is often when they have troble with short naps. Have a look at this for a better description.
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=64168.0
What do you think?

[JHBmom]

Yes it is hard to be consistent at night   I'm so mad at myself because last night he was waking up from 11pm-1:30am and then woke again at 3:30.  At 3:30 I gave up and took him into our guest bedroom and let him nurse and sleep with me.  I'm just too worn out and frustrated. 

As far as the nursing goes... I have gotten him onto a 3 hour routine (sometimes 4).  But now here's a new problem... he won't eat for more than 6-8 mins?   But when it's time to put him down for the evening I will feed him for 20 mins.  I feel like he may be having stomach issues because sometimes at night he will cry out loud, as if in pain. 

For naps I usually take him up and darken his room and just hold him for a while.  When I put him down I give him a dummy and a blankie and sometimes he will immediately become relaxed and drift off.  But other times he will cry for a bit.  The past few days I worked very hard on his naps.  If he wakes up at 30/45 mins and is crying I go up and settle him, which usually takes another 45 mins and then he'll sleep.

I don't know if I'm ready to try the wake-to-sleep.  Although, maybe I can try it at night as he has been waking up now at 1am and 4 am on most nights.  After I feed him at 4 pm, he constantly wakes up from jolts for the remainder of the morning.  It's so frustrating!

[Khalam's Mama]

Well done on getting to 3-4hrs eating. That is much better.
My DS has always only taken 5-10 mins a feed but 20-30 before bed and since STTN 20mins in the morning too so may not be an issue he may just be efficient, esp If he is now lasting 3-4hrs. Do you offer both sides?
I think sleeping more fitfully early morning is normal due to light sleep cycles..? DS used to wake more frequently as the night went on. If his wakes are consistent then maybe w2s will help. Let us know how he gets on.
Also Ds will sometime cry out at night like he is in pain but just continue sleeping. I would think if he doesn't wake it is not pain.

[JHBmom]

I don't know what has happened now... he has started throwing major fits before naps, which wasn't an issue before.  I'm starting to wonder if he is going through his 4 month growth spurt now?  For his last nap he was hysterical for 15 mins.  I ended up feeding him for 10 mins (his last feed was 2 hours prior).  After his feed I put him down and he settled himself to sleep.  I take it that was a sign that he was indeed hungry?  I'm so confused now!

[Khalam's Mama]

So what is his routine like now and how long is he feeding each time?

[JHBmom]

Here is his routine from the past few days

***on this day he ate 5-7 mins each time
7am E
8:45 S
9:50 A
10:20 E
11:30 S (woke at 1210, settle for 40 mins
1:30 E
3:17 S
3:50 E
6:20 E (wouldn't nap)
7:20 E
8:10 S

------   

6:45am E
8:30 S
9:45 E (7 min)
11:20 S (12A - 12:30S)
1:00 E (10 min)
3:00 S (30 min)
3:30 A
3:43 E (15 min)
5:40 S (30 min)
6:10 E (15 min)
7:20 E (20)
8:40 S (put down at

today:
7:30 E
9:10 S (1.5)
10:33 E
12:10 S (30 mins)
12:48 E
2:30 E (10 mins--after attempting to put down, cried for 15 mins)
2:45 S (1.5)
4:30 E (15 mins)

[JHBmom]

Oh and his NW the last two nights have been frequent

[Elenas Mummy]

The 4m gs is HUGE.  WIth two of mine it's lasted over a fortnight.  You need to just go with it.

The text in the book regarding breastfeeding is a little dated and I'm sure that Tracy would have amended her advice to reflect most recent breastfeeding research if she were still with us today. 

It can be totally 100% normal for a child of 15 weeks to want to nurse every 2hrs.  There is nothing wrong with that and there's also no reason you can't still follow EASY because as it states in the text, EASY is about routine and NOT schedule.  It's about following your child's cues and meeting their needs accordingly and as such being better equipped to establish a decent routine.  Each feed cycle doesn't need to be the same and my understanding of this is that the previous nap is a good indication as to an appropriate A time when feeds are falling into an exact time pattern (which is often the case with breastfed infants).

I'd continue to nurse on demand (so long as you are definitely reading his hunger cues) and relax about extending the time between feeds.  Work EASY around him so that you both get what you need out of the day

HTH

[A pair of Charlies]

We hit a big old GS at around 4 months too. I say around because they hit the spurt when THEY hit the spurt; not necessarily bang on 4 months. And a stream of GS isn't too uncommon. For us, the first few months were GS crazy, then monthly for 3 & 4months, 6 month and the mother of all GS at 9 months. It lasted on and off a whole month.

Best thing for a GS, IMO, is to go with demand. Because it's natures way of setting everything up to run in sync. Follow the cues (like Elena's Mummy posted make sure it's genuine hunger cues) as he knows how hungry he is and how much his body currently needs better than we do. If you follow his cues, it should pass over a few days to 5 days or so. It can last longer. It can be done and dusted within 48h! It depends on your babe and what their body is telling them they need. But if you follow cues, your supply will adjust faster and thereby, supply meets his demand.

At around this time, Mamas who are single side feeding find they need to move to double side at each feed. And the duration of the feeds isn't anything to worry about too much - they get more efficient with time. Just watch for the sucking and swallowing, plenty of wet and pooey nappies, content baby. If you think he isn't finishing the breast at a feed, test to see if there's still plenty of milk left in the breast after the feed.

Ummm, what else? Not all babes are the same. They grown at different rates, their tummies are different sizes and just like you and me, they have different appetites. Mamas don't all produce the same amount of milk either. So, while it might seem like all babes should be able to go 4 hr between feeds at 4 months.... well, it's kind of like all of us should be able to go the exact same amount of time between meals. And if we're getting different sized meals, well, that's no fair!

Lots of Mamas here weren't on 4EASY until 6 months - they worked the EASY around their babes, following the structure and tweaking (babywhispering) to what their babes were telling them they wanted and needed.

Looking at your EASY, I do wonder if there's a chance that it's not just a GS at play here. The OT naps (usually 30min nap is considered OT) is followed with a long A time (Awake = eyes open to eyes closed, include E in the A time). If you can, cut the A time right now after a 30min nap so it's literally (at this age) a nappy change, feed, nappy change, loving gazes and off to bed. Also, if you're getting much crying while trying to resettle this will be a real calorie burner, leaving LO hungrier.

http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=164029.0 This FAQ has some good examples of how to move things around the different E times. Example 2 gives a 3.5h between feeds and a low-end A time - might give some inspiration. What sort of A times do you aim for at the mo?

HTH

Charlotte

[*Ali*]

At around 3 months I found it really hard to stretch the times between feeds when DS had a short nap. If you can extend those short naps by either getting him down just at the right time so you don't get OT or UT naps (easier said than done I know) or by actively extending naps you will probably find he goes longer between feeds naturally. I know we were able to move to 4 hour EASY (at about 19 weeks) once we got longer naps and A time up to 2 hours and in turn this really helped DS sleep for longer periods at night. 
BTW I think we were doing 90mins awake 90 mins asleep at this stage and moved to 2hrs awake and 90mins to 2hrs 15mins asleep by 4.5mo. I extended our short naps using wake to sleep and I have heard others had success with holding through the jolts.
I agree GS mean more food is required but Tracy strongly recommends feeding more at each feeding rather than feeding more often or at night during GSs. Do you actively try to increase the amount of milk taken at each feed? E.g. offer both breasts, burp mid-feed, take a break and change nappy before going back to feeding etc.