2:1 routine has a few kinks - 10 months...

[empowered mama]

Hi Wendy,

Today was our first successful day   I was able to get him down at 3 hrs off the bat, 1 hr AM nap, then 3.25 second A and a 1h25min nap.  The last A was 3.5, so I'm hoping for a good night ahead.  Looks like he was OT with those 1 hr naps...

I believe I remember reading somewhere that you transitioned Finn kind of early to 1 nap - can I ask what age he was?  Was it a rocky road for you?  I have those temptations to just do it, but know that it is much too early and would be a disaster.  But still tempting yk

Will let you know how the hopefully not-so-early morning goes

[Tweakster]

Hi Carrie, well that's pretty good.  Maybe he was OT - hmmm.  It's so hard to tell with some kids really!  I think you should stick with that for a while and see if the EW persist.

Yes we had to rush Finn to 1 nap for his start to daycare by 12 mths of age.  He started daycare 3 days after his birthday. 

At 9.5 mths he started refusing his PM nap.  He didn't shorten it or give notice, just refused to take it for several days. 
That sent us into a bad OT spiral and I started getting desperate. 

At 10 mths I posted on the board and got some great advice:
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=163140.0

By 11 mths we were doing a 20 min AM nap at around 3.5 hrs after waking and then a full 2 hr+ nap at around 2 hr 30/3 hr post short nap.  Then he started prolonging going down for the 20 min nap so we ended up just dropping it and pushing him to 1 nap at 11:30/12 noon.  It wasn't without issue but he responded very well to 1 nap and after about a week his body clock was set and he would knock out 2-3 hr nap no problem.  It took him some time to grow into his A times but being at daycare and highly stimulated helped that.

I can't say I regret the push because it really helped our routine to be honest.  The predictability became lovely and it really helped with his transition to daycare.  But he does average on the lower side of sleep, always has and likely always will because he's just not developmentally ready to do a longer night.  10.75 hours is a long night for us now.  He gets OT easily when his sleep totals drop and when LO is on 1 nap only, it's hard to clean up OT - the best you can do is offer early bedtime for a kid that won't do 2 naps anymore.  So you have to really weigh it out - need vs. want as far as the transition goes.

How was his night and wake up?

[empowered mama]

Wendy, thanks for that thread - I was just about to ask you for it   I can see how you made the jump to 1 nap work...right now, I'm tipping a little towards want vs. need for that lovely 1 nap routine.

This PM nap is starting to drive me batty.  After our nearly perfect nap day, we had a pretty rough NW and EW but I'm chalking it up to something else - it seemed something was bugging him.  Then yesterday, did the same A times and got a 1 hr UT PM nap.  Today did the same As and got a 40 min PM nap, which is notoriously UT here (had to let off some steam after that one).  So I wonder, would it be worth it to extend the 2nd A again?  or shorten the AM nap to 45 again?

Some day....we will have something predictable other than EWs 

[empowered mama]

Yikes.  What a brutal night we had - NWs every 45 min or so all night long, yuck.  Definitely he was OT at bedtime, but I didn't expect this.

I'm really afraid to keep the same As for fear that we will have a repeat of yesterday.  I've been reading your thread and it appears to me that the key is to get the 2nd A time right.  If that 40 min nap yesterday was UT, I presume some A time extension is in order, but maybe the first A instead of the 2nd? 

Right now our 1st A is 3 hrs, 2nd A was 3.25.  He is not fighting the 2nd nap for now, so I'm guessing we should still stick with AM nap of 1 hr?

[Tweakster]

Hmm OT NW don't usually manifest like that for most LO - I say most because anything is possible.  That sounds like discomfort, teeth perhaps?  Tummy ache?  Anything else going on?

The 2nd A time is key for getting that nice long PM nap.  For sure.  But the first A time also comes into play because it also determines whether they can handle a longer A after a shorter nap or if they have used their stamina up in the first A and still need a shorter A after the short nap.  Does that make sense?  I feel like I am talking crazy lol

Just because he's not fighting the PM nap doesn't mean he's not ready for a cut.  It can manifest in so many other ways when they are ready but the PM nap refusal is just the most obvious sign. 

Honestly, I think you need to make a plan of attack and do it for at least 5 days without changing anything at all.  Ride out whatever NW etc. to see if he evens out.  If not then you make an adjustment.  If you adjust too quickly you may undo any progress you are making with his body clock.

[empowered mama]

I see what you mean about the As all affecting each nap.  I suppose this is where the tweaking madness really kicks in 

You were right about those NWs - he woke the next day with an awfully runny nose so we are now in recovery mode, juicing him up with vitamin C and all that good stuff.

Can I ask what other signs would indicate a nap cut?  Wondering what I should be looking for to know if we need a shift or not...

When you say we are aiming to adjust his body clock, are you suggesting that his body needs to adapt to certain A times, or specific set times for naps?  ie - wake every day at the same time, nap around the same time, and to bed at the same time.  He doesn't ever seem to have a consistent wakeup time (mostly due to those EWs), which makes it hard to be consistent from day to day yk?

[empowered mama]

hmm...well I think I have my answer re: nap cuts.  DS seems to be refusing PM nap again, so I guess that's my cue 

The fun never ends...

[Tweakster]

Sometimes it's an EW or shorter nap that means they need a nap cut.  Doing less hours at night, taking longer to go down, or only sleeping one sleep cycle.  Refusal is like a red flag that 'hey, I'm too rested so you better do something'.  As long as their sleep totals in the 24 hour period are in the average for their age and they are happy and seem well-rested it really doesn't matter how you serve up the sleep.  It's nice to have a good balance between day and night sleep with long nights and long naps, but not every kid will play that game.  So you have to find their sweet spot and work it.

Body clock is like when you get tired at a certain time, thus when you travel time zones you may have a hard time adjusting until your body clock is in line with the current times there.  It is affected by lots of things, circadian rhythm, exposure to light and dark, melatonin and hormone levels, and just pure habit.  If you get him going down for his naps at the same time for about a week, you may find that he will stick with that for a while.  Once he's settled down into it, then you may be able to adjust within 15 mins or half hour.  With Finn he doesn't have that adjustment flexibility - he just likes his nap to be a certain time every day period.  Any adjustment and we get wonky short naps or he just seems 'off' for the day, or we get NW or some fun EW.  So we stick to what he knows and it serves us well.  But your LO may be happy with A time tweaks to get to where you need to be. 

If he's sick though, his nap refusal can also be from discomfort or OT rather than UT or too much sleep.  It just means you have to follow him more until you know he's better.

It's so nice to see you contributing on NW, I just wanted to say thanks for paying it forward and helping out all the peeps on here, you are doing a great job!

RE: the inconsistency, we moved to set nap set bedtime for that reason.  It was too hard to manage anything else.  Plus with his daycare schedule we really had no choice.  But he was 12 mths when finally on 1 nap and it did take him a while to grow into those A times.  They are quite long when you think about it, entertaining a kid for 5 hours or more before sleeps means you really need a game plan :-)

[empowered mama]

This all makes complete sense to me re: body clock and those tips on signs for nap cuts are really clarifying to me.

However I feel like I am reaching around in the dark for his A times still.  I think I have managed to set his body clock for the 1st A time, as he is going down around 3 hrs A time with little to no issue.  It's the 2nd and 3rd that are driving me bananas.  I really don't know if I should push or decrease - I try so so hard to study him and determine if UT or OT, but it's difficult to tell.  For example, today he woke from nap #2 after 1h10min sleep - seemed generally happy for quite some time, then started losing it after 2.5 hrs A time.  OT or UT?  It is all a mystery?!

Here was our day today:

Awake @ 6:50 (only 10-10.5 hrs sleep)

1st A = 3 hrs (nap 9:50-10:45; shaved 5 min off today to see but he actually woke himself at 55 min, in a great mood)

2nd A = 3 h20; put him down at 3 hr and took 20 min to settle (nap 2:05-3:15 - didn't really seem OT upon waking)

3rd A = tried to get him to sleep by 6:45 - he fought BT for 30 min; really upset so not to sleep until 7:05)

I have this sense that he either needs more A time somewhere, or a nap cut as he has always been on the higher side of A times and is nearly 10.5 months old.  Yet I am unsure what to do as I believe he is OT from the short nights and shorter naps.  He seems over the sickness and my gut tells me that's not the issue.  Is anything here sticking out to you? 

In the words you so honestly stated way back when:  Urrgh, argggh, pfffft and meh.  This is right about how I am feeling ATM, boo.

[empowered mama]

ugh....I'm just about to throw the towel in.

Today...

EW @ 5:40, feed and back down until 7:10 (11-11.5 hrs sleep)

E -8:10
A - 3h15
S - 10:25 (45-50 min nap; woke himself in a good mood)

E - 1:10
A - Here we are....put him down just before 3 hrs A time and he has been playing/fussing/refusing the nap for the past 45 minutes.  Am I missing something here?  I thought after a 45 min nap that he should have around 3 hrs A time?  Didn't seem a lick sleepy....but he doesn't really give cues much these days.

By now I'm sure he is mega OT....hopefully we can get another nap in somehow.  Thanks for hanging here with me....what a discouraging time this is.

I will be the happiest kid on the block when naps are no more.

[Tweakster]

The issue could be that he needs more A time in the middle because his first A is shorter, you can try 3.5 before the 45 min nap, I would wake him at 45 mins and no later, even less if you know what his sleep cycles are.  You want 1 sleep cycle only.  You may end up at the 30 min nap sooner if he wants to play hardball :-)

Then he may make it to 3 hrs only after that OR he may need 3.25 OR possibly 3.5 if he's high on A times.  What was his nap then today?  It sounds a bit UT really.

The other thing that can interfere is that EW and going back down for more sleep, they can sometimes treat that as a nap rather than their extension of night sleep...which means he was really rested.  If he has a longer night you may need to give him more A time in the AM.

Sorry it's so tough on you guys :-(  I have had my share of tough nap shenanigans over the last 16 mths, but really once on 1 nap it does get so much better.  Don't wish away napping altogether hehe :-)

[Jiinx]

Hi Carrie,
 Sorry you're still in the midst of a EWs I tend to be a couple steps behind Finn in terms of what to look out for next.

 I actually don't think I ever got those 1.5 x 2 naps between 6.5 months - 12 months. I'm sure I had a few, but my memory is a bit hazy.

 I have to say, I never did the short AM, PM nap..just bc I could -never- figure out my daughter's second A time. As the months went on, it just kept getting longer and her naps went from 1 hour...to 50..to 45..to even 38 sometimes. She would wake up crying (this was around 7-8 months) and sometimes I managed to get her back, sometimes she was like 'no thank you'. She's really precise with her sleep needs. If she gets more during the day, she does less at night and vice versa.

 I kept her first A time pretty consistent, Carrie, for practically 4 months. I was always hovering around 3-3.5 hours of sleep and it always yielded me a nap of less than 1.5 hours. I think I can count the number of times she gave me 1.5 hours.

 She was pretty happy to go down for her first nap. With her, and most babies, they get stuck in this rut of habits. Since babies are creatures of habits, they really do love the routine of their morning. Mine LOVES going to sleep in the morning. Goodness, I can't take her out in the car bc she'll just konk out in the car on the way home.

 My lo was going through teething, for some time and this probably resulted in the low A times. As the weeks went on, her A time in the afternoon was getting high. It was a hit and miss but towards the 11 -11.5 month mark she would start to just sing in her crib and not go to sleep for, sometimes, 15-20 minutes.

So at 10.5 months...I can't remember but I was doing 3-3.5 hours for the first A, second A was nearly 4 hours and this gave me a 45 minute nap and then 3.5 hours to bed..which she could handle. Then by 11.5 months, things were not working and she was giving me crazy EWs that were just so unlike her. I realized the last nap was interfering with her sleep ...but..that's for another day

I wish I had advice. However, it does take a week or two for some los to adapt. I -think- he's UT, carrie. I've always suspected that...but not sure how to proceed. Have you tried 4 hours of A time ?

*hugs*
 

[empowered mama]

Thank you Wendy and Sarah for these suggestions.  Really appreciate the confirmation on UT signs.  I have been so caught up in seeing what everyone else is doing, trying to make my LO adapt to the 'norm' when really I think you are right - he needs more A time. 

Today we are treading somewhat carefully, as he only ended up with one 45 min nap yesterday; nap 2 was a complete bust and had a few NWs and EW last night.  However, I will say that today he managed a first A time of 3.5, woke himself after 45 min quite happy.  Put him down around 3 hrs today, aiming to have him sleep around 3.25.  He has been playing for 30 min so far so hmm....maybe this kid is playing hardball.

Ahh - that must have been an emotional moment for me to wish naps completely away, silly me..

I will say that I feel like with each reply you send, I am becoming more educated and confident that we can get this rough patch.  Hard to not let it consume you when all you do is manage sleep all day  

[Tweakster]

I tend to be a couple steps behind Finn in terms of what to look out for next.

That makes 2 of us Sarah lol

If he's taking too long to go down and he's just happy in his crib than I would say UT...when I got the A times right he was out in a few minutes.  I ended up cutting back our nap wind down and everything by the 2-1 because he didn't need as much IYSWIM, he was tired, knew it was nap time and out he went.  I practically just threw him in the crib after lunch.  If you read my thread you will see that Stacy had to hit me up the side of the head with 'he's not going to transition how you want him to!' and that was the truth.  I wanted it to all run tickety boo and smooth but alas it was a mad scramble for the middle A time, just as it always had been with Finn.  And once that was sorted, it did work well for both of us.  So it's just getting there really :-) 

As for being all consuming, it's all I think about still lol  Don't know if that will ever change ;-)  But it's gotten easier to manage if that's any help.

[Jiinx]

How's it going, Carrie?