It's Getting Worse...Help Me Change the Three Hour Sleep Cycle! 4 Mos old

[ccg01]

Hello, have somehow developed about a three hour wakeup and eat cycle overnight. It's been well more than a week now, so I think we need to fix something... maybe more than one thing. Please, suggestions welcomed!

DS just turned 4 mos
Good sized baby -- 14 lbs 8 oz as of 9/2
EBF - nursed when I am home, EBM when I'm at work
We have been working on getting to a 3.5 to 4 hour EASY, as I think that was part of the problem. Has always been a short napper, but he does often do one nap of 1 1/2 to 2 hrs.

Day looks roughly like this (this is yesterday).
Wake 7:35 - very happy
E - not much at first, didn't seem hungry (Tried at 7:40), 8:30 - 4 oz
A - lots of thumb sucking

S - 9:10-945 (early nap, sitter was here in morning, said he seemed tired)

E 10:55 3.5 oz

A stroller ride
S 11:40-1:18
E 2:10- 1 1/2 oz, 2:45 - 10 min nursing

A errands
S2:58-3:34
E 4 - 10 min, 5:30 10 min.
Wouldn't go for nap (this has been a struggle this time of day, naps about 1/2 the days)
Bath, walk
E -7 -10 min
S 7:15 (he sleeps swaddled, Miracle Blanket)
DF 10:23 2 1/2 oz (havejust started this again as was waking between 1030 and 11:45 hungry)
Woke at 12:55 - ate, back to sleep at 1:15 - dirty diaper
Woke 3:45 - hungry, nursed about 10 min, back to sleep 4:10
Woke for day at 7:15 - dirty diaper
Have not had luck getting him back to sleep without eating. THoughts? Oh, in the night and most naps, he settles on his own in the crib.Thanks!!

[ccg01]

Thanks! I am sure you are right about the four hour EASY. He is staying up for two hours after his morning wakeup with no problems. We seem to be settling in (fingers crossed) to a 45-50 min nap (wakes happy, no luck extending), 1 1/2 or longer nap, 45-60 min. nap day... that's definitely been better since starting to move to the longer EASY.

No luck settling when less than four hours since he's last eaten. Well, it worked one time. He gets more and more worked up. That said, last night was better (I know, just one night). The dream feed was a bit of a mess, he woke when I started to feed him and then was awake the whole feeding... then I thought he was settling back to sleep, but kept hearing him grunt and stir... turns out he almost completely unswaddled himself and needed to burp. Got him to sleep at 11. (Did the DF at 10:10.) However,he then slept until nearly 3, then ate (had a dirty diaper), fell back to sleep on his own shortly after, didn't wake until nearly 7. So closer to four hour stretches.

Hoping we are on the right track with the 4 hr EASY and DF (just started it again this week). Also have been putting him to bed much earlier when he skips the catnap. Tonight he was asleep at 6:25! Woke crying at 7:10 but was able to settle him without feeding.

[newbiemommy]

Hi there, I was having the same problem with my 4.5 MO.  Sure enough, as soon as I started stretching out the feedings during the day, DD started sleeping longer at night.  DD is also EBF and self-settles, but the only way to get her back to sleep when she NW is to nurse (even if she only nurses for 3 min and wakes up when I put her back in the crib, she self settles) - sounds alot like your LO - if we try to sooth w/o nursing angel baby cries hard.

I don't know if it's possible but when I started moving to a longer EASY DD extended her night sleep the same day!  2 nights in a row now it's been so much better! (Of course now naps have gone south but that's another story!)

So did you transition gradually to 4 hr or did you just start extending?  Please keep us posted as I'm in the same boat right now and would love to compare notes!

Maria

[ccg01]

Hi Maria,

We are still not at a four-hour EASY from the "E" standpoint... having a hard time getting him to take a full enough feeding at once... so I think that is probably hurting the overnights.  He has been doing a bit better, last night was asleep at 7:50, up a bit after midnight, then up again around 3 (I know that isn't great, but the first stretch is an improvement!). We really need to figure the daytime feedings out... have not been able to get those two feedings into one most days.

Have been able to gradually (using Tracy's method) extend the daytime routine, though, so he is now up two hrs before his first nap. (Need to do the same with the next nap, although he seems to have established a two hr gap between second and third naps all by himself. :-) His daytime sleep has VASTLY improved since we did that -- were having mostly 35-50 minute naps at best and now he is almost always doing a long nap (1 1/2-2 hrs), sometimes two long ones a day. I did drop the DF again about four or five days ago, as it didn't seem to help the interval at which he'd wake next. (Sometimes he was waking an hour after it! Argh... not fun when you stay up later than needed sleepwise just to do the DF.)

How are things going with your LO?

[newbiemommy]

I've been doing 3.5hrs for feedings during the day and that is working out well.  But naps are a mess and I'm sure that's impacting NW.  DD seems to be on a 13-14 hr night and a 10-11 hr day.  I've been told I need to set a specific wake-up time for her and stick to it but I'm having a really hard time.

Last night was great - she went to bed at 6:45 and slept 45min, then  6 hrs, 5 hrs, 1.5 hrs and then up for the day - went right back down every time after nursing.

But today it's the same old daytime story - 1st 2 naps are 30 min each, 3rd nap is anywhere from 45mn -1.5hr. Because she gets so little sleep during the day she's ready for bed a little earlier every day.  In the past 6 days she has moved her bedtime from 8:30pm to 6:45pm!  she just keeps moving it up and I keep letting her! 

DF didn't do anything for us, either.  Sigh.

[tigerlilly905]

We are still not at a four-hour EASY from the "E" standpoint... having a hard time getting him to take a full enough feeding at once

Just thought I'd try and help out Agreeing that 4 hr EASY is the way to go.  You mention DS is BF, do you do single side, or both?  We used to do single sided until DS went to the 4 hr EASY... since he was going longer between feeds, he needed more, so we started doing both sides.  As soon as we started feeding both sides, he was getting enough to make it the 4 hrs.  Try and keep up the the DF, we found it key to helping DS STTN ( until we weaned it just recently).. now it's not needed.

Good luck

[ccg01]

Newbiemommy, how long is her A time? We didn't see progress until we got to the 2 hr A time in the morning for naps -- your little girl's naps sound almost exactly like my son's were. Today he took two naps of 1 1/2 hrs each! Amazing (and probably random fate, lol.).

Tigerlilly -- I work, so he gets expressed milk during the day, nurses at night and exclusively on weekends. Oddly enough, today he took bigger feedings and at the "intervals" we would like to see (meaning one E per EASY!). Hoping this keeps going. We may try the DF again if we can get the days stabilized a bit. I know what you mean, it worked beautifully for my older son but has not seemed to work as well yet for this LO.Tonight he is starting off in a sleepsack rather than his swaddle, as he's really been getting out of it and making me nervous with the loose bedding, so that's another wrinkle for the little guy.

[newbiemommy]

Morning A is all over the place.  when I first started to try to extend 1st morning A (a week ago), that was when she was up 2 hrs, then had a 2hr nap (BINGO- 4 hr EASY in one fell swoop! It couldn't possibly be that easy, could it?  Of course not!) - Since then, morning nap went to 30 minutes, sometimes only 20.  I keep shortening A time, but this morning, for example.  Nanny and I started trying to put her down after 1.5hr A time and it took until 2hr40min!!!  Of course only a 30 min nap.  then a 1.5hr A, 30 min nap.  then 1hr45min A, then 30 min nap.

So should I just go for a set wake-up time, keep first A really short (one hour?), see how that first naps goes and do that for three days and then push 1st A to 1hr 15 for 3 days, then to 1.5 for three days, etc?  Poor thing is sooo tired all day long all she does is yawn.

[SUNNY01]

Hi there. I have the same issue as you. My DD is 4.5 months old and does pretty solid naps of 1.5 to 2 hrs and what made a difference was moving towards a 4 hr easy. But she still wakes up at night and has not been able to resettle unless I breastfeed like you. Since she only takes a bit I'm wondering if this is nursing to sleep? Have any of you found successful ways to resettle without nursing? I'm worried that I'm starting accidental parenting ...

[ccg01]

Tiggerlily, I forgot to mention that usually I do single-sided, but if he seems hungry, have been offering second side.

He definitely seems to be working on eating more during the day at a feeding, so I think that is good. Today he had one good nap ( 1 hr 40) and two short ones (30 min-ish). Was looking at the directions about how to transition to 4 hr EASY and know we need to work on extending that second A time...

DS is still nursing for several minutes at night, but I do worry about accidental parenting because we experienced that big time with my older son (which is what led us to the Baby Whisperer :-). He does fall asleep on his own after most night-time feedings, so I am just not sure.

Newbiemommy, curious as to why you've gone to a shorter first A time? Cues? We used to do a short first A but it was only with consistent extending that the daytime improved. (Not that it is perfect, but that is to be expected, he doesn't know what we are trying to do. lol) I would keep up the earlier bedtimes. We did that as well when we realized how little sleep DS was getting during the day. A moderator may be able to help here, but I would try to catch the sleep up overnight (let her wake on her own) and work on extending the first A until it is at 2 hrs.

[newbiemommy]

I had a moderator suggest that I stick with a set wake-up time, but it is soo hard, as DD is yawning her head off nonstop from the moment she wakes up.  On the other hand, if I let her sleep until she wakes up, then she will have a 13 or 14 hour night (not straight through, of course) - and there's hardly any sleep left for naps during the day!

Yesterday followed her cues and went with a 1.5hr A first thing, and she took a terrific nap - 1.5hrs+ (I woke her up) - Today it's back to shorter naps, but at least not 30 min ones.  Sigh.  constant tweaking.

[tigerlilly905]

had a moderator suggest that I stick with a set wake-up time, but it is soo hard, as DD is yawning her head off nonstop from the moment she wakes up.

GREAT advice!! That's what we did with DS when we were getting our EASY going. SAME wake up time every day... 7am... once we got our EASY in a groove, I didn't have to wake him anymore...he just does it on his own now.  It's hard for the first bit, as you're totally resetting their little internal clocks, but it does work... just gotta stick to it

Sigh.  constant tweaking.

LOL How true! So is the life of a Mommy!

[ccg01]

   Am back again... more exhausted. DS is now nearly five months old, and for the last week or so the waking cycle has been more like 2 hrs at night. Afraid we are going to have to do something more drastic to help the situation, but really dreading PU/PD, since PU doesn't seem to calm him when he is worked up. Worried about having to stay up for a full hr (that's what it took the last time I tried it) each time he wakes.... but looking for suggestions. Have been doing gentle removal to keep him from falling asleep (or at least staying asleep on me).

He is now rolling over both ways. Can't feel any teeth yet. Is a happy baby most of the time, content to play or rest in his swing. He calms quickly at night if he is nursed. Usually I change his diaper after the night feedings or do something to ensure he is not fully asleep when he goes back into the crib, he can even put himself to sleep then if he is fed and chatting to himself.

Yesterday looked like this, it is fairly typical, although he was going longer between daytime feedings and eating more last week. He is swaddled (Miracle Blanket) for naps, sleep sack at night (for about the last two weeks). No solids, just nursing when I am home in evenings/nights/weekends and EBM during day.

Wake 7:30
Eat 8:12 (not hungry sooner): 5 oz EBM
A - carried, floor time on mat
E 9:15 1.5 oz EBM
S 9:35-11:35 (woke him so didn't sleep too long)

E 12:10 5 oz EBM
A same as above
S 1:30-2:35 (had to be woken up so DH could go get his brother from school)
A same as above, add'l stimulation from said big brother

E 3:45 (again, not hungry sooner) - 5.5 oz

Wouldn't nap at 4:35
I came home at 5:30 and he acted hungry, so nursed him for about 10 minutes and he drifted off. I gently woke him by putting him in swaddle, he fell back to sleep
S 5:50-6:35
A Bath (loves it, wants to slide as far into water as possible, the little stinker! lol), vita D drops, massage
E 7:15 - about 10 minutes
read story, sang lullaby
S 7:40 - on own, chatted til he fell asleep -10:30, woke crying, had dirty diaper

E Several minutes
S 10:45-1:00 (nighttime times not exact, I am so tired I can remember the precise minutes)
Tried to hold and soothe back to sleep, wanted to nurse

E Several minutes. Didn't need to be changed. Slightly awake when into crib.
S 1:25-3:25 small poop
Dived for breast to nurse when I tried to hold him and shhh him back to sleep

E yes
S 3:50-6:25 (which is early for him, usually does about a 12 hr night) - big dirty diaper
E - about 15 minutes, tried to get him to go back to sleep but was up for day

[ccg01]

Hi Jane,

So do you think it might be time to extend to 2.25? He's doing 2 pretty easily now (we were slow getting there, but he manages it well). The catnap happens about every other day,btw. I do wonder about teething, lots of drool, but that's been around for about a month.

He's always had frequent poops, but back in the good old days, when he used to sleep until 4 or 5 in the morning, they didn't seem to wake him up very often. It may or may not be what is waking him now, but he certainly does not seem interested in going back to sleep on his own!    Once in awhile, I hear him on the monitor cry out a few times and then chat to sleep, but it is rare. So I really am not sure what to think. The good thing is the daytime naps seem to be (knock wood) consistently longer. The bad is the night wakings are not going away.