Need help with EWs DESPERATELY 2.5 years old. Gro-clock - other ideas?

[Tobysmum]

I have another post on here as I'm REALLY struggling with EWs with our spirited 2.5 year old.  We always have done but it had started to improve for a while and we are now back to bad EWs - anywhere between 4.45am and 5.30am.  The EWs seem to have come back with potty training since he when he wakes at this time he wants to go on the potty (and does a wee) but will not go back to sleep afterwards and SCREAMS THE PLACE DOWN UNTIL WE GET HIM OUT!!
Not a pleasant start to our morning - plus I have a 4.5 year old (who is a great sleeper but even he is woken up sometimes) and a 12 week old baby.
Not ideal and we are tearing our hair out.
We have recently ordered the Gro-clock in the hope that it may help us out.  I was wondering what success people have had and whether it might work for us.
DS is spirited and is in his own cot in a grobag (has made no attempt to climb out yet).
I had started to cut his nap down from about 1 hr 15/20 to 1hr (tried it for 3 days) and it did not improve things - we actually got a 4.45am wake up!  So yesterday I let him nap for 1hr 30 mins since he also has a bit of a cold.

Our day looks like this:
Wakes-up between 4.45 and 5.30 (usually around 5.15am) - will not go back to sleep and will scream until we get him.
S 1.00-2.20pm
S 7.00ish.  

Have tried a later bedtime - this makes things worse.  Not easy for me to get him to nap much earlier than 1pm as he finishes nursery at 12 (3 days per week) and has to have lunch etc. and wants to play when he gets home.  He goes through comfortably until 1pm and would even go later.

Please help me!  

[nona]

hi i have some ideas. i will get back to you later!

[Aly Mac]

Hi, I would suggest that you shorten the nap.  We have the gro clock and it's great, with the exception of the last few days where we have let her nap too long....(we were nap free, but dh insists....sheesh!). So she has been up a whole hour early, and is not happy (tells me it taking too long).  So I really feel the nap is the key. now all kids are different, so you may want to experient. so if he's having 1.5hrs now, try 1 hr. for a few days and see.

It may take a while to even out, and that in conjuction with the gro clock will hopefully help.

seriously, sometimes the nap is the root of all evil in our house!!!

[Tobysmum]

Thanks for that advice.
He only usually naps between 1hr 15/1hr 20 mins (we wake him up usually).  I did cut down the nap to 1hr for 3 days but on the 3rd day, that's when he woke up at 4.45am!  I don't know whether 3 days just wasn't enough to make a judgement call on as to whether it would work.
He was up at 5.15am again today - grrr! 
DH is going away tonight, so I'm going to be on the early morning shift for the next 3 mornings and then we are off to Orlando on Wednesday. It's only an hour time difference BUT the last time we were there he never adjusted and just woke up his usual time - i.e. one hour earlier!!  So that would mean a 4.15am wake-up for us.
Does anyone else have any ideas?  Do you think shortening the nap is the way to go?
Thanks ladies.

[nona]

hey here are some ideas we used when having sleep issues. i never cut my son's nap.  at almost 4 (next week), my son is still napping so i think it just depends on your child's sleep needs. your LO is only 2.5, so most likely he still needs a little nap. 7pm seems like a really early bedtime though.

this is the short version of things we did, but if you need more detail let me know.

1. sleep chart - make a picture chart of what happens at bedtime - morning. (ie brush teeth, PJs, 3 books, etc, etc....wake up time can be a picture of a yellow sun and/or picture of the gro clock turning 6am (or whatever)
--kids find comfort in scheduler/routine and knowing what happens next. my son still likes to refer to his chart
2. gates in the doorway. we were having issues w/ frequent NWs & EW (i'll skip why this was happening). anyway, after MONTHS of trying out different techniques, we put 2 gates in his doorway (one on top of the other b/c he would crawl over just one). they were see through. when my son would wake up, we would tell him, remember teh sleep rules, stay in bed until X (clock turns yellow, whatever). each incident required less time, and each night we had less NW/EW. there was some crying but we did not desert him just minimal interaction. over a period of 4 nights, the NWs, EWs got less and less and eventually he was STTN once again.
3. gro clock (mine is called a My Tot Clock).  we used this w/ the above and now we have no gates, and he will stay in bed until his clock indicates it is time to get up.

You have to be very consistent.

If you get a clock, you may want to forward in small increments - like 5:30am, then once it works move it to 5:45, 6, etc. until you get the time you want.  With a 7pm bedtime, I dont you think will get him sleeping 12 hrs until 7am. You may want to push his bedtime to 730/8 or something. and maybe you could try pushing naptime to 130pm. when you tried later bedtime before, how long did you try it for? bc i think eventually he will sleep later w/ a later bedtime. i think right now, he is waking bc he does not need all that sleep. he is getting almost 12 hrs right including night time + nap right?

if you are going on a trip, i'd just go with the flow and make any adjustments when you return. you & Dh just need to hit the sack a little earlier so you are no zombies the next day.

heather

[Tobysmum]

Thanks for your replies!

Firstly, he's still in a crib - it's not that he's getting out of anywhere - it's that he screams the place down once he's decided it's time to get up (whether that be 4.45 or 5.00 or 5.15 or 5.30am and it still being pitch black outside!)

This morning was 5.15am - he wanted a wee - we put him on the potty - put him back in bed (he wanted the light on dim) - he just sat in his bed until 5.45 when he'd done a poo - and then we managed to get him to stay in his bed until about 6.15 - BUT obviously we didn't go back to sleep since he originally woke at 5.15am and nor did he.

As far as his bedtime of 7pm being too early - that's a bit of a tricky one.  DS#1 has ALWAYS gone to bed at 7pm (and it's worked great for us as we actually get an evening to ourselves or can go out to dinner for 7.30pm and still have a relatively early night).  DS#1 pretty much always sleeps from 7-7.  He's always been an angel/textbook in the sleep department.  He is 4.5 years old and will still have a short nap from time at school (and we encourage it if DS#2 has woken him up early).  He does not nap at home - totally refuses to!

Now, if we were to put Gus to bed a bit later - we would most likely have to do the same for DS#1?  BUT DS#1 needs more sleep than DS#2!
In any event, I wouldn't want to push it any later than 7.15/7.30pm latest as that is what works for our family.  In addition, because we have a newborn and I am up feeding in the night, I go to bed around 9pm anyway - so if we moved bedtime much later then we would have no evening to ourselves whatsover.  I don't think that's selfish.

I will clarify, that we do not expect DS#2 to sleep until 7am - I know that will never happen BUT if we could get him until 6.15 or 6.30am then we could live with that.

So, the question is, do we reduce the nap (considering he doesn't nap long anyway at 1hr 15/20 mins) or do we move bedtime later and move the nap later?

I'll admit that we've never tried a later bedtime apart from the odd time when he's gone to bed late by mistake and it's resulted in an earlier wake-up.  How many days would we do it for it to make a difference?

So, what to do?  Any more comments would be gratefully received.  Obviously I don't plan to put any plans in place until after we get back from vacation on 3rd November.

Thanks - we really need to see some kind of improvement soon.  My poor husband is having to get up with him everyday as I am up with the newborn in the night - and I am having to do it myself for the next few days as well as the baby as he's away on business.

[nona]

ok well, the reason we used the gates b/c my son started climbing out of his crib so we moved him to a BBB (since he was at a decent age to do so) and then he kept showing up in our room. it was more complicated than that but thats the short story.  so i guess that will not help you.

i get the bedtime thing and wanting a evening to yourself, i just think obviously something needs tweaked. and no kid is the exactly the same, so yea maybe DS#2 may need a later bedtime than DS1. or maybe a shorter nap like an hour, you may need to try both to see what happens (not necessarily at the same time). an hour nap just seems pretty short to me but also maybe DS2 just need less sleep than the avg kid.

also, "eventually" your newborn will be STTN -hopefully sooner than later so maybe you'll get a little less time to yourself for a short while but hopefully you wont' have to deal w/ the morning issues  which will be bliss and then it will all work out.

if you do make a change, you should get it at least a few days (4 or so) to see what happens.

also, it sounds like he is waking up from habit? what if you get the clock and tell him it is time to pee @ X time or when clock is whatever color, etc. TBH, if it was my kid i would tell him to pee in his pull ups vs waking me up at 4am to pee LOL esp w/ a newborn. PT would be low priority ATM.  is he drinking lots of water before bedtime?

does he get tired around 1pm or do you put him down?

also, my child is NOT spirited so it could be what worked on my kid will def not work on yours. KWIM?

aleesa  - anyone - what do you think? i'd def not a sleep/spirited expert!!!

[Tobysmum]

Last night was my first night on my own (DH went away last night).  Gus woke at 3am screaming - I think he'd had a bad dream about potty training - he was crying saying he'd fell in the potty and his back was all wet (he was dry).  I let him have a wee and he went back to sleep after some battles about wanting to get up and go downstairs.  He then woke up at 5.10am and was insistent that he wanted to get up and go downstairs - he screamed the place down to put it mildly (how DS#1 didn't wake up I don't know).  After 10 mins of negotiation he laid down (I had to put the light on dim for him) but he did not go back to sleep.  He asked for his nap at 12.45pm today and I obliged as he's was being a total monster!

First let me clarify Gus (DS#2) is totally definitely spirited as far as I'm concerned.  I have been on these boards numerous times over the past 2.5 years stressing over his sleep or lack of it and whatever we have tried, we've never really had anything more than brief periods of good sleeping (and I' not talking 12 hrs at night here either).  His sleep has always been very erratic, nap lengths have really varied from one day to the next, morning wake-up times have been variable at best.  He's just "unpredictable" in the sleep department and there isn't any rhyme or reason - at least not me or anyone else who has tried to help on this board has found any real solution that's worked for us in the long term.
He's an absolutely great little boy, funny, very energetic, very intelligent, a great sportsman (already!) and has us constantly entertained - BUT we would enjoy him so much more and he'd possibly be more even tempered if he was sleeping better - or at least longer in the mornings.
He is the total opposite to DS#1 in the sleep department (or our new daughter in fact - I can already see that!) I do not expect him to be the same as Toby (DS#1) by any means, but we obviously have to do something that's right for our family.

Just to answer your questions and to respond to your comments (IN UPPER CASE SO YOU CAN SEE!)

i get the bedtime thing and wanting a evening to yourself, i just think obviously something needs tweaked. and no kid is the exactly the same, so yea maybe DS#2 may need a later bedtime than DS1. or maybe a shorter nap like an hour, you may need to try both to see what happens (not necessarily at the same time). an hour nap just seems pretty short to me but also maybe DS2 just need less sleep than the avg kid. Huh
I AGREE THAT SOMETHING NEEDS TWEAKING - OTHERWISE I WOULDN'T BE HERE!  I KNOW NO KID IS THE SAME - OH YES, DON'T I KNOW IT!!!  YES, I COULD TRY SHORTENING THE NAP TO 1 HR - AS I SAID PREVIOUSLY, I TRIED IT FOR 3 DAYS WITH NO RESULTS.  YES, HE'S ALWAYS SURVIVED ON LESS SLEEP - A SUPER LONG NAP FOR HIM WOULD BE 1.5 HRS ANYWAY! 

also, "eventually" your newborn will be STTN -hopefully sooner than later so maybe you'll get a little less time to yourself for a short while but hopefully you wont' have to deal w/ the morning issues  which will be bliss and then it will all work out.
YES, EVENTUALLY OUR NEWBORN WILL SLEEP THROUGH THE NIGHT.  DS#2 DIDN'T SLEEP THROUGH THE NIGHT UNTIL HE WAS 11 MONTHS, SO I "COULD" HAVE A LONG WAY TO GO UNTIL THAT HAPPENS  

if you do make a change, you should get it at least a few days (4 or so) to see what happens.
OK, I CAN DO THAT.  I'M WONDERING WHETHER TO TRY SHORTENING THE NAP FOR A WEEK AND SEE WHAT HAPPENS AND LEAVE THE BEDTIME WHERE IT IS FOR NOW?  THOUGHTS?

also, it sounds like he is waking up from habit? what if you get the clock and tell him it is time to pee @ X time or when clock is whatever color, etc.Huh TBH, if it was my kid i would tell him to pee in his pull ups vs waking me up at 4am to pee LOL esp w/ a newborn. PT would be low priority ATM.  is he drinking lots of water before bedtime?
IT'S WEIRD THAT IT'S ALWAYS THE SAME TIME PRETTY MUCH.  AFTER HE WOKE UP AT 3AM LAST NIGHT I WAS HOPEFUL THAT IT WOULD HAVE BROKEN THE PATTERN A BIT LIKE WAKE TO SLEEP - BUT NO LUCK THERE.  5.10AM ON THE DOT HE WOKE UP WANTING TO GET UP.

does he get tired around 1pm or do you put him down?
GENERALLY DOESN'T SHOW TIREDNESS (AT ALL IN FACT) - EVEN AS A BABY HE NEVER REALLY SHOWED TIREDNESS CUES (WHICH WAS PART OF THE PROBLEM I THINK IN WORKING OUT A TIMES FOR HIM).  I GENERALLY ALWAYS PUT HIM DOWN AT 1PM (I HAVE TO GO AND GET DS#1 FROM SCHOOL BETWEEN 2.30 AND 3.00 SO I CAN'T HAVE HIM GOING DOWN TOO LATE.  HE USUALLY GOES TO SLEEP AT ABOUT 1.15/1.20PM IF WE PUT HIM DOWN AT 1/1.05PM.

also, my child is NOT spirited so it could be what worked on my kid will def not work on yours. KWIM?
CORRECT.  IF SOMEONE HAD TOLD ME ABOUT SPIRITED KIDS WHEN I HAD MY FIRST CHILD WHO WAS ANGEL/TEXTBOOK, I DON'T KNOW IF I WOULD HAVE BELIEVED THEM    SPIRITED KIDS ARE A WHOLE DIFFERENT BALL GAME.

aleesa  - anyone - what do you think?Huh i'd def not a sleep/spirited expert!!!
YES PLEASE - DOES ANYONE HAVE ANY OTHER COMMENTS.  I'M WILLING TO GIVE ANYTHING A SHOT!

[*Amy*]

My LO is the same age and we also had EW's since he was 1 !
We got the gro clock.......and my life changed
Also, DS is in montessori school three days a week, on those days he naps from 1pm - 2/2.30/3pm and is in bed for 7/7.30pm
Other days he naps about 11/11.30am and is in bed for 7pm nap is generally for 2 hours.
We also tried everything - but with no success. DS asks for his nap and asks for bed at 7pm. He just likes to get up early so we got the clock - he loves it - gets very excited about it! and he stays put until 6.15am every morning! we don't hear him until he comes through!
Does your DS wear a diaper at night time? it is understandable for him to be waking to pee if he isn't sleeping with one on.
Also - perhaps it is time to move him to a BBB. My DS has slept so much better since we moved him (we had no issues what so ever with the move)
If he was in a BBB he would be able to use the potty himself to pee and then not wake you??

[Tobysmum]

Thanks - I am  praying that the gro clock will change our life too

He's spirited, and knowing him, a BBB would be a disaster - at least that's what I think.  He's VERY strong willed and stubbon and I cannot imagine him staying in a bed that he can get out of.  I fear that the early mornings would be horrific as he is very adamant about wanting to get up despite it being pitch black everywhere.  If anyone can persuade me otherwise I'll listen!  Also, once he goes in a big boy bed, that's it - there's no going back.  The plan is also that the boys will share a room but that's another story (we only have 3 bedrooms with 3 kids and us).

Doesn't matter how busy he is in the day (is at nursery 3 mornings) - he always wakes early.  The only time we saw him sleeping a bit better was when we were doing lots of swimming but it's now autumn and the outdoor pools are too cold and there are no indoor ones (we live in Bermuda).

Thanks for your suggestions - please keep them coming! 

[Aly Mac]

Hi again,

my lo isn't spirited either, so I'm going from textbook/angel....

bedtime - sounds like alot like my lo. We always had early bedtime and we liked it plus, I just don't think 8pm is a time that I wanted my lo asleep. but that's just me.  I would try 15mins later for bed. 7.15, if you can. 15 mins can make all the difference.

nap - yep too young to cut out and (lucky you Heather with C still napping!!! Lil does a couple of times a week.) and if you've tried shortening, have you actually tried earlier??? I know when my lo was that age, on our birth thread there were kids that were great with earlier naps and some with later naps. maybe earlier is better?  bring forward gradually.  I remember (way back when she was on two naps), reading that an early rise can have to do with the amount of wake time between wake and nap, the day before.  So it may be too much A time before the nap.  Just a thought and maybe worth a try.  That way still a long nap (1.5) but more even in the day. and it the nap end time won't effect the bedtime. 

As I said, this is just how my kid was.  Our routine from around 2 or so, right unil 3.5 (when the nap was getting shorter and her not wanting to nap much) was this:

wake 6.15 (we had daycare 3 x wk, so had to be that time, but was never a later riser anyway)
nap 12 - 2 (again, daycare have this time, but worked perfectly with our routine) she would never nap the full 2 hours, but I would start bedtime routine at 11.45,and asleep by about 12.15.
bed  7pm - again, would start 6.45, maybe asleep by 7.13 latest.

I hope this helps - i know it sounds the opposite to alot of other kids, but always seem to work for us.

holidays - yes, i would wing it until you are home enjoy your holsx

[*Amy*]

I would also go with an earlier nap on non nursery days, even as early as 11/11.30am.....keep us posted!

[Tobysmum]

AM GOING TO REPLY IN UPPER CASE SO YOU CAN SEE MY COMMENTS

HE WAS AWAKE AGAIN (TO WEE) AT 5.00AM AND THEN REFUSED POINT BLANK TO GO BACK TO SLEEP.  SCREAMED THE PLACE DOWN.  WOKE UP DS#1.

Hi again,

my lo isn't spirited either, so I'm going from textbook/angel....

bedtime - sounds like alot like my lo. We always had early bedtime and we liked it plus, I just don't think 8pm is a time that I wanted my lo asleep. but that's just me.  I would try 15mins later for bed. 7.15, if you can. 15 mins can make all the difference.

nap - yep too young to cut out and (lucky you Heather with C still napping!!! Lil does a couple of times a week.) and if you've tried shortening, have you actually tried earlier??? I know when my lo was that age, on our birth thread there were kids that were great with earlier naps and some with later naps. maybe earlier is better?  bring forward gradually.  I remember (way back when she was on two naps), reading that an early rise can have to do with the amount of wake time between wake and nap, the day before.  So it may be too much A time before the nap.  Just a thought and maybe worth a try.  That way still a long nap (1.5) but more even in the day. and it the nap end time won't effect the bedtime.

NO HAVE NOT TRIED MOVING THE NAP EARLIER.  I HAVE NO IDEA WHETHER HE'D GO DOWN EARLIER OR NOT.  I GUESS I COULD TRY IT.  WOULD ONLY BE ON NON-NURSERY DAYS THOUGH - AND I GUESS HIS LUNCH WOULD HAVE TO BE EARLIER.  I THINK AN 11.30AM NAP WOULD BE A HUGE JUMP FROM THE 1PM TIME HE GOES DOWN NOW.  I MAY TRY FOR 12.30 FIRST AND SEE WHAT HAPPENS.  THE ADVICE FROM THE "DROPPING THE NAP" BOARD SEEMS TO BE REDUCE THE NAP LENGTH AND LATER BEDTIME.  I GUESS IT'S JUST WHICH TO TRY FIRST!  SO MANY PEOPLE ARE TELLING ME, JUST LIVE WITH IT, THERE'S NOTHING YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT:(

[nona]

i agree that makes sense to me too (moving nap up a bit) since he is up so early!

worth a shot right? if it doesn't work, then try plan B!

[Aly Mac]

HOw did it go??

I would gradually do it too.  It's surprising how when you find hte magic time, it all fits into place.