Stopping nursing to sleep - how do I know night feeds no longer required?

[spammerb]

Thanks again for the replies.

Hello Katet - Thanks for your suggestion. I work as a paramedic and although I will initially only be doing 2 shifts per week, they will be all sorts of odd hours. I could leave the house as early as 0530 some days which mean I'd miss the morning feed, and other shifts mean I'm gone from 1130-0030, or 1730-0630 so I'd miss the evening feed, etc etc. Some shifts are 12 hours and with an overrun (can't leave halfway through a job!) I could be gone for 14 hours or more. Sorry if I've gone off the topic but I don't know enough yet about milk supply... so if I missed a morning feed or evening feed one day would I still maintain enough supply for the next morning/evening?

Hello Bex18 - Thanks for the information, yes it is useful. Some of your situation is similar. I'll have a look at your post on NW Board.
Naps aren't too bad with winding down, it's bedtime that she's a real bad sleep refuser! Bedtime routine is dinner at 1800, bath at 1900 and bed at 2000 nursing to sleep. We can read books but she gets excited with books, as she does with most things! So sometimes it's a case of sitting in her room in the dark talking quietly to wind her down. If I could get her to sleep at 2000, then she wouldn't be OT, its only that sometimes it takes an hour or more to get her to sleep that she ends up OT and then its even harder for her to switch off, and that's hard enough already!
Her A times have increased again recently. She has mostly been an 11 hour a night sleeper. We have tried earlier bedtimes but she thinks it's a nap and then she's awake for another couple of hours, so we played about with bedtimes to see when we could ensure she would stay in bed! We have now reached the stage with A times that we have to juggle sometimes with timings to get 2 naps in.
It was only when she got to about 8 months that we got any more than 35 mins naps... it was a nightmare. We tried everything but nothing worked. In the end it was just age! But we still have days where she will only have a short one and that can throw things as I'm sure you know. Glad you have made it past the 35 mins!
I nurse her to sleep for naps and bedtime.
Our average at the moment is 3 wakings a night. Sometimes it takes me 10 mins, other times I can be in there for an hour. She will have fallen asleep nursing, but I will lay her down in the cot and she will sit up like "now what?" and so we have to go through the whole thing again, and sometimes it takes 3 or 4 attempts.. so it's knackering!
I don't know enough about milk production to answer your question, but I do know that I produce less milk now, as DD is taking less now.
We have not tried PU/PD (or PD!) yet, we are preparing ourselves for it!

Anna - thanks for the info.

Sam

[Katet]

Hello Katet - Thanks for your suggestion. I work as a paramedic and although I will initially only be doing 2 shifts per week, they will be all sorts of odd hours. I could leave the house as early as 0530 some days which mean I'd miss the morning feed, and other shifts mean I'm gone from 1130-0030, or 1730-0630 so I'd miss the evening feed, etc etc. Some shifts are 12 hours and with an overrun (can't leave halfway through a job!) I could be gone for 14 hours or more. Sorry if I've gone off the topic but I don't know enough yet about milk supply... so if I missed a morning feed or evening feed one day would I still maintain enough supply for the next morning/evening?

Sam I would say that if you averaged 10 feeds/ week out of 14 (ie morning & night) then your supply would keep up, but really the thing you need is for her not to need you to nurse to sleep.

Is she actually taking less now or more efficient with it. I had a Ds1 who fed for 1 hour until 3mo & then slowly until he stopped at 13mo dropped back to about 10-15mins, but during that time I could get about the same amount from expressing. While my DS2 fed for 7min from birth until about 10mo & then would want to feed for 30+mins from then until he stopped at 18mo... I don't think time is an indicator as they can get faster or want more comfort. A 10mo can be very efficient at getting milk very fast, but can also be very good at a comfort suck, so it may not be that you produce less milk more that she is far more efficient.

[spammerb]

Thanks for your reply Katet. I would prefer it if I could wean much more slowly and maintain some feeds when I return to work so I will try what you suggest, thanks.

I completely agree with you - the nursing to sleep has to stop. Been putting it off for far too long. I have read a few posts that say the thought of it is worse than the actual process... I hope that's the case for us too! OH has 3 days off in a couple of weeks so this is when we plan to do it.
The only thing we have to decide is whether we go straight for PU/PD or use the method you used. How long was it before you managed to stop the night feeds altogether?

I understand what you say about feeding more efficiently. I haven't expressed for a few months so I couldn't actually say for definite that she is taking less but it just seems that it has dropped off a little in the last month or so. She has reduced her feed times down to about 5 mins which has been the case for the last few months compared to her first few weeks when it was much like your DS1 and took about an hour! So you're right, I don't know for sure.

Thanks again

[Katet]

I really struggle with the crying & so for me one of the best things I learnt was "predictability" so between now & when you have the 3 days, put some things into place that are totally predictable... eg even if she is asleep when you put her in the cot, have a monologue you say/sing. I have found thinking "predictable" not "routine" helps me mentally in that you can build a predictable sequence that they get to know... will write more later on that as I think you are like me a bit of a planner... but got to go now

[spammerb]

Thanks again Katet for your help. And yes - well guessed - I am a planner!

I have started with saying things at bedtime that I will say when we begin. I have to say them right at the beginning of nursing her as she stirs or wakes if I leave it until she is sleepy or asleep, is this OK? Quite often she'll be asleep and I'll lay her in the cot and she'll wake just from the movement of me putting her in and I have to start again.

I have been paying close attention to her feeds at night and it seems that quite often she will take a better feed at night than in the day...is this normal? This leads me to think that we would be better to wean night feeds one by one as won't she be too hungry to go back to sleep? Is there a way of knowing which method would work best or is it just a case of picking one and going for it and sticking with it?

Thanks

[anna*]

For me I think I would probably say OK I will do one feed per night. i think it's a good idea to settle without feeding at the first waking - and then feed at the next feed if it's at around 2am. And then settle without feeding at subsequent wakings.

Re hunger overnight. Yes it is normal for them to take full feeds overnight. It's dark and cozy and there are no distractions. I know it's not a lovely idea to think of settling when they're hungry but it can be done and hunger passes. At 10 months old my little one was waking every two hours, we dropped all night feeds bar one and then dropped the last one. Sure he was probably hungry but he did go back to sleep and within a few nights he was sleeping through 12 hours.

Re the method of weaning, yes I think you just have to pick one and give it a really good go.

[spammerb]

Thanks Anna. I know what you say makes sense.. I guess I'm just scared of doing it but I know it has to be done. It will be better for all of us.
So if I just feed once per night, how long would you keep that last feed up until dropping that one too?

[anna*]

Just a few nights. You're only keeping it to give you the confidence that she's not starving when you're trying to settle her at 4am. Once she's gone a few nights on only 1 feed, she won't be so hungry when you drop that one.

[Katet]

Yes dropping them one by one helps with the psychology of maybe they are hungry.

Really the key for starting the process is to feed then if she wakes as you put her to bed to not go back to feeding but to go to the "plan" to say something like "you've had your nice feed now it is sleep time" & then put her in the cot, & let her stand if that works & comfort her from within... once you keep feeding to settle you teach her more & more that is the way to go to sleep. To stop night wakings you MUST & I MEAN MUST not let her feed to sleep at the start of naps/bedtime as you are teaching 2 different things & it won't work.

this is how I'd attack it.
 At a time, not bedtime, put a doll in her bed & "pretend" to put the doll to sleep, sing songs say a mantra of "goodnight" pretend the doll cries etc but roll play (with your DD in the room) the doll going to sleep. Do that 2-3 times the days leading up to when you start (do it for 5-10mins if you can keep the 'game' going'... give comments like "oh Dolly is finding it hard to go to sleep, Mummy will help dolly relax, Mummy will rub back etc" - all things that you could use with your DD.


Bedtime.

feed until very relaxed but not asleep, put in cot, get to sleep by gentle cuddles (could take 1-2 hours, so start early), remain calm, taking LOTS of big deep breaths the whole time... more relaxed you are more relaxed she will be
First waking do same, get to sleep without feeding... expect to take a while
With the getting to sleep without feeding do EXACTLY what you did with the doll... importantly don't tell her to go to sleep, but more focus on her getting relaxed... you can't make someone sleep you can only set the scene so they are relaxed enough to sleep KWIM
Next waking (if at least 20mins after first waking) feed, ok if feeds to sleep, repeat if any other wakings
Nap next day, follow pattern from previous night. DON'T feed to sleep... if you need to take a trip in the car or in the stroller if they help her sleep, but NO feeding at all before sleep times once you start... you wouldn't poke her with a stick & then cuddle & then poke with a stick & keep repeating, well falling back to 'just this once' is the same as poking with a stick only to apologies & repeat the act... it isn't fair.
subsequent days keep up the same... around day 3/4 there is often a regression where it is much harder after it seemed to be working, but keep at it... think in terms of you have spent Months teaching her to fall asleep with a feed, what is a couple of weeks to teach a new skill.
I know it won't be easy, so much of parenting isn't easy, but worth it.

now if I could get my 5yo to remember where he left his shoes (instead of in the cupboard) I would stop being insane... we have turned the house upside down I've totally lost the plot & still can't find them... been working on putting them in the cupboard for Months... think this might be the deal breaker with having to wear the ones he doesn't like as much.

[EloysH]

just to let you know i am reading along and really loving the advice on this thread.    Its helped me alot 

[spammerb]

thanks again Katet for your time spent in helping us! Really appreciate it.

Really the key for starting the process is to feed then if she wakes as you put her to bed to not go back to feeding but to go to the "plan" to say something like "you've had your nice feed now it is sleep time" & then put her in the cot, & let her stand if that works & comfort her from within...

feed until very relaxed but not asleep, put in cot, get to sleep by gentle cuddles

I'm a bit confused.... do you mean at the very start of the process I feed her to sleep, and then if she wakes go to the 'plan'? or do you mean feed until relaxed and then put in cot and then go to the 'plan'?

And do you mean that as she stands in the cot, i would lean over and cuddle her?
Would I do 'PU/PD' (the PD part) at all?
I have a feeling she will cling on to me and try and get on me to take her out if I lean over to cuddle her in the cot. Is that expected?
And do I just carry on cuddling her until she falls asleep? (we have a cot with sides that don't go down and I am short!). Is the idea that she will just get exhausted standing in her cot and eventually take herself down and go to sleep, or do I wait until she falls asleep on me cuddling her from outside the cot and then lay her down myself? Or will it be a bit of 'suck it and see?!'
Sorry if this is all obvious, I just don't want to get it wrong! And I don't want to start it and get to a point and think "so what do I do next?" IYKWIM.

So I would start at bedtime rather than a nap?

Great idea to use the doll as 'practice' for her, thank you.

Once we start this, I will absolutely not go back to feeding her to sleep. I know what you say, it would be completely unfair and confusing for her.

And lastly....did you find the shoes??!!!

[Katet]

I'm a bit confused.... do you mean at the very start of the process I feed her to sleep, and then if she wakes go to the 'plan'? or do you mean feed until relaxed and then put in cot and then go to the 'plan'?

No you don't ever want to feed to sleep (unless it is a night wake up ie at 2am it is ok to feed to sleep) at bedtime it will be a problem if she falls asleep feeding, so at bedtime & nap times ie the start of sleep you want to only feed until relaxed or sligthly sleepy, but awake enough that they would look around in bed, think ok I'm in bed & go to sleep (which probably won't happen if you've always fed to sleep.
To give an analogy if you feel asleep in your bed & woke up somewhere else you go "what on earth is going on here" so with a baby if the last place the remember being is snuggled up to Mummy's warm body having nice milk & then suddenly they are alone in a bed they wake up upset... if they only have "memories" of waking up alone in the cot then they are more likely to get upset when they are put in there as not only does it have unhappy memories, but also it is not predictable... so you need to make sure that they have things that are predictable & also look the same when they semi wake up.

I never really did PD when my children were upset, didn't work for me, so I would stand on one side of the cot & they would cuddle into me (as they stood) but they were in the cot KWIM) & when they got relaxed I'd try lying them down, so kind of an extended PD. So yes you would expect her to cling & want to get out & that would be when you would take lots of deep breaths to relax yourself & calmly say something like "sleep time, lets get relaxed" & rub her back & just show her she is safe & you love her etc & get her to trust that you know what you are doing & it is ok.

I do think it is a bit of try & get her to be relaxed (but not asleep) & then lay her down, but there is always a fine line & I *DO* think with parenting it should never be about "I got that wrong" (cos there is no right or wrong) but to be "ok, I can see that I let her hold on too long & she was asleep in my arms" or maybe I should wait a bit longer if she is going to cry like that when I try to lay her down. it is kind of about finding what works with both of you...The thing is if she does fall asleep cuddling up to you, you have got more than half way there... she is in the cot & she isn't falling asleep feeding, so you could then say ok I'm ready to tackle trying to lie her down earlier & stoke her back while she lies down, & then move to less & less stroking.
I couldn't do cold turkey it wasn't me & so I kind of worked out ways to break down the goal based on where we were & what I could lessen... I mean even last night with my 5yo I ended up stroking his face to get him to relax to go to sleep because I knew he was struggling to relax & the longer it took to get him to sleep the worse his tiredness would be... so you do kind of have to make a judgement call on what your instinct is, if you feel you are helping a bit too much, think what could I do less, could I only pat her back to the count of 5 (when you are doing it to 2) would that work KWIM

A bit random as thinking of things as I go... but another thing is - you CAN NOT make a person sleep, you can help them relax so they are in a position to sleep, so you don't focus on them going to sleep you focus on what is best at keeping yourself relaxed & what can help your child relax.

The reason I suggest at bedtime is normally children are tired & more ready for bed at night & also there is less light & often less noise & if you say throw in a bath etc then there is a more predictable routine & the "predictable" side is an important part.

Finally, she probably will get angry... accept that, you are changing the rules on her & she probably doesn't totally understand, it is good she gets angry, see it as her processing that things are changing, but don't let it do anything but steel your resolve... the 5 stages of grief - 1.Denial – yours - this will sort it self out
2.Anger – Hers -  It's not fair!, why us it changing
3.Bargaining – her - the clinging the pleading eyes
4.Depression – both of you, her the sobbing & sniffing & you the "I feel so horrible"
5.Acceptance – Her - I can't fight, I love my Mum & she is here for me.

And yes found the shoes (I think it was my doing) they were 2 shelves up from where the shoes live & I think I probably picked them up from where they weren't meant to be & as I was putting something else in the cupboard on the 2nd shelf, put them there not on the bottom one LOL... shoes have made it there for 2 days since

Oh & if ever you think "Is this the right thing' "or what should I do now" think "am I helping her relax, how can I help her relax" & go down that path... because that is the key to get her relaxed enough to want to sleep (like feeding does)

[Bex18]

kate, you simply have the best advice, thank you for sharing this with us.  I never thought of the 'getting them relaxed' i used to focus on getting DS to sleep!!

x

[spammerb]

Thanks so much Katet for your brilliant explanation, and thank you for your time spent on helping with this. I feel like I'm asking loads of obvious questions but my mindset is the more I can find out now, the more confident I'll be when we start.
I have bought a doll (she didn't have one! - am I a bad mother??!! so we will be doing our role playing with that as you suggested.
Thanks again! I'll probably come back with some other questions soon enough....and I'll update with our progress.
Glad the shoes resurfaced!

[inoella]

just following along...