Stopping nursing to sleep - how do I know night feeds no longer required?

[Katet]

good luck for Tuesday     just remember if you accidentally cave for one sleep, just pick up where you left off for the next sleep!

Also don't think "I'm doing this wrong" or the like, because there isn't a wrong in parenting, just somethings do work better & at the end of the day YOU know your child best, so trust yourself & you might find tweeks that work best for her.

[inoella]

just wanted to send out a little encouragement - i worked pretty hard on sleep training the past month and naps improved so much. but the past 2 days she's been sick so i was dreading that it might fall apart! it hasn't been pretty but i can tell the sleep training has paid off - she knows what to expect and i feel more confident about how to interpret her cries. 2night i had to do wi/wo a few times cuz she was so OT but she didn't have a fever and had the proper dose of meds and i knew that even if she was having trouble falling asleep because of some discomfort the best thing for her at that moment was to get sleep so i just proceeded as usual (i actually stay with her for a while to help her settle initially and then do wi/wo). anyway, it was a yucky day and i feel bad that she's getting ot cuz of short naps, but over all i'm pleased that she has settled into our little routine enough that it works even when she's sick. just thot i'd throw that our fwiw.

[Lemonthyme]

Good luck for Tuesday.  We did some sleep training with our 6 mo and he's recently got his first two teeth (and been diagnosed with eczema).  Threw the sleep off for a week but now we're back to where we were last night so I'm hoping we've got over that hump.  I agree with the other posters; if you wait, you may be waiting for a long time. 

Btw, when he was having teething pain, we gave calprofen and baby bonjela but still didn't feed him unless it was around feeding "time".  Tbh, he didn't want it anyway, he just wanted a cuddle when he woke.

[spammerb]

Thanks again everyone for your words of encouragement.
Thought I'd update you with where we're at.
Bedtime was later than we wanted last night because I couldn't get her down for her first nap so ended up taking a drive so we could avoid a one nap day and OT at bedtime. Did bath, sleepy music and read in bedroom. Told her same things about bedtime and fed to drowsy. Put her in cot at 2040, and then she was wide awake. Lots of crying. It was a bit of a PD (only 3 times) and cuddle combo...first of all she wanted cuddles, I cuddled her from outside cot. I think when she realised I wasn't going to taker her out, she then didn't want cuddles and kept moving away from me and sitting down. I kept talking to her and stroking her hair, and eventually she got tired enough that she let me lie her down and I rubbed her back and she fell asleep... 40 minutes from putting her in cot.
Woke at 0135, first wake up so no feed. Offered water, refused. Similar to bedtime but crying less hard - 50 mins to sleep.
Woke at 0615, fed, put in cot drowsy but not asleep, no crying, 20 mins to sleep.
First nap, didn't feed her at all. Played about in cot for 20 mins and 20 mins of simliar to first wake up. Few more PD though. 40 mins from in cot to sleep.
It has been horrible but hugely surprised that it has not taken longer. We'll see what the rest of the day and tonight brings.

Thanks again - everyone's time, experience and advice has helped so much in preparing for this.

[inoella]

Good to hear the times haven't been too bad.
Hang in there! It will keep getting better and you'll be both be happier!

[Katet]

Alll sounds pretty good, well done & hugs for you, cos I bet you feel like some.

Also remember it is not oncommon to get a day of regression around day 3/4 where it has got better & then it gets worse... that is to be expected.

Now you know you can get her to sleep it is easier because you know it does work & 2 night wakings is pretty good too.

[spammerb]

thanks for the encouragement and hugs! they are needed!

here's an update....

I think we were lulled into a false sense of security on our first night and day as we've mostly got worse (time wise) than better for naps and BT- is this normal? I think the shock at the start made her so upset but it did lead to quicker sleep times as her usual spirited reserves were knocked!

 following on from my last post:
 -nap 2 of day 1 was 50 minutes.
 -bedtime night 2 was 1.5 hours (sleep 2205) - most of the time she was just sitting and racing and rolling about in the cot not upset. when she actually stood, I did PD but this seemed to get her OS and she was laughing thinking it was a game. Do I use PD when she is like this or do I just have to leave her to wear herself out? She is an extreme sleep fighter anyway, and can just carry on without showing that she's tired, so quite often I have to just take her away and make her go to bed because she won't switch off otherwise. I have yet to find anything that calms her, other than boob, but that got to the point where it didn't really work any more anyway. So, we've had a lot of this for naps and bedtime since....just messing about in the cot. getting a bit upset on occasion, then going back to messing about. and she is tired. Not sure how to react to it. Have been sitting in nursery chair sometimes and letting her get on with it, as my attention when she's like this I think makes her more OS. then going to her when she becomes upset.

 -first NW 0230, no feed, massive cry but only 15 mins to sleep.
 -second NW 0605. feed.

 -nap 1 of day 2, 25 mins to sleep.
 -nap 2 of day 2, 20 mins to sleep.
 -bedtime night 3, 50 mins to sleep.

 -first NW 0300, no feed. big cries on and off, not wanted cuddles. 45 mins to sleep. didn't seem settled. cried 15 mins later, left her a bit to see if she would self settle but she wouldn't. still no feed. back to sleep in 15 mins.
 -second NW 0500, feed. sleep within 10 mins.

 -nap 1 day 3.... 1.25hrs of mostly just up and down, round and round the cot, sitting, rolling etc. very little moaning - abandoned.
 -nap (only nap) day 3, sleep in 15 mins!
 -bedtime night 4, sleep in 45 mins.

 -first NW 2315, no feed, sleep in 7 mins.
 -second NW 0005, no feed, sleep in 6 mins.
 -third NW 0350, feed, sleep in 15 mins.

 -nap 1 day 4, sleep in 40 mins.
 -nap 2 day 4, sleep in 50 mins.
 -bedtime night 5, sleep in 1 hour.

that takes us to now.

she is not really crying at all now for naps and BT, I did PD with her for that whole hour just now. she's so tired, she's just fighting it. she has big cries in NW though they are thankfully mostly short. do I just stick with PD and the times will get shorter or could this be how it is due to her spirited nature??!! (never found anything yet that calms her for a WDR!)

I realise we've come a long way already, so really pleased with how it's going. But it feels like we've gone backwards since night/day one with times though, yet less or no crying is better.

I am feeding before bedtime, and tonight there was a gap reading a book, but after night 1 she hasn't got drowsy (which is normal!), so been putting her in cot awake. not been feeding directly before naps.

sorry this is such a detailed breakdown, just wanted your eyes if possible to see if we're on the right track... and if I'm missing anything?!?

she has suddenly started asking for BF at least every 2 hours in the day, if not more. is this making up for what she's missing in the night? GS? or comfort?

shall I continue like this without dropping the night feed for a few more days and see how we get on?

thoughts welcomed.
as always, thank you!

[anna*]

That's great progress. Don't do PD unless she's crying a full on cry. If she's just fussing around in her cot trying to settle, just leave her to it, she doesn't need you there. If she's playing, either leave the room, or stand/sit away from the crib and don't look at her - have your back to her, even. She will let you know if she need syou!

[timmysmommy]

Just wanted to add some encouragement!!  You've come a long way! 

[Katet]

Sounds great & sounds like you've come a long way.

I agree if she isn't upset & just playing leave her to it, even try going out of her room & only going back in if she gets upset if *you* think ie you are comfortable & instinct says it may work. It is actually normal for children to roll around & "play" to unwind in their bed for 20-40mins (some longer) I know that my best friend's DS (now 4) has always taken at least 1 hour before he goes to sleep, he is a low sleep child, but they have found that he needs an average amount of "down time"
I also remember the childhood nurse I saw when I had issues with DS1 saying that down time for a child who has mobility (ie crawling/walking) is about 50% as good as sleep... so even though she isn't asleep she is limited in stimulation KWIM.

You may find that if she isnt' crying for most of the 50mins, it may always take her 30mins+ to unwind for sleep, so worth factoring that into your times for naps/bedtime.


Sounds like day 4/5 could also be your regression day which is VERY normal... hang in there it does get easier esp as you start to look at what is happening & think ok can see a pattern, she does that everynight.

[spammerb]

Thanks Anna, Amy & Katet, it's reassuring to know we're on the right track.
Thanks for the useful information and advice, it's really helpful.

I'll figure in some extra time before sleep for her to lark about in her cot. Although saying that, she was asleep in 15 mins for her first nap today! She might have been more tired due to the excitement as it's her birthday today.

I thought I'd read quite a bit about PU/PD but must've missed/forgotten the bit about only doing it when they're crying! No wonder she thought it was a game!!

Last night she was asleep by 2030 and her first waking was at 0345! (massive progress!) and of course by then I'm guessing she was hungry, but because it was her first waking I didn't feed. A long and fairly tearful hour and 20 mins later she was asleep. Then she didn't wake until 0800.
She had no feed in 11.5 hours of sleep - I think the first time ever!! So, if she should have more than 1 NW tonight should I feed on the second waking, or now that we've gone a night without a feed just stick to no feeds however many times she should wake?

With her recent increased demand for BF, should I just feed her when she wants for a while, or should I try and stick to EASY? (At the moment it's EAEASY!!). Could this be making up for missed night feeds, a comfort thing after the recent changes or a growth spurt?

Thanks again for all your support, advice and help...couldn't have got to this point without it.

[Katet]

Sounds like you are making great progress.

If she went 11.5hours at night, I'd feed a bit more in the day if there is requests for it, but you may find she ups her solid food too. Many 1yos are only on 2-3 BM feeds/day (I know my DS1 was on 2 & had & had one in the day from a cup/bottle - he was too distracted to feed in the day, can't remember for DS2).

With the night feeding, give it another day or 2 & see, I notice that most of the night feeds have been around 5/6am... for me they were day feeds for my 2 (sleep past 7 was/is a rareity for them) I think you could run the risk if you don't feed at 6am that may mean the start of the day, so you may have to weigh up the pros & cons... honestly when it gets down to those sort of details as to what is best you know your life & your child, so really it is best to think about what you feel most comfortable, is a 6am feed ok if she sleeps late & it is the only waking or is it better for you not to... comes down to the individual.

[EloysH]

Wow!  I am so impressed with how you are guys are going!  Well done.  Where there is a will there is a way 

[spammerb]

thanks Katet and Eloise.

You're right Katet - we've noticed an increase in solids over the last few days.

She had a later bedtime than normal last night due to her birthday shenanigans (our fault!), so was asleep by 2100. There were 3 times throught the night when she really stirred and started to moan and it escalated to a low cry, I was preparing to go in and then she resettled herself!! Couldn't believe it!  She definitely would have woken before. And she woke at 0730 happy and ready for the day!
No night feeds - an official STTN!! Hoorah!
I won't count my chickens, I know it's still early days but I think/hope we're over the worst!

Thanks again for all your time, it's so appreciated. 

Sam

[timmysmommy]

Wow Sam! Congratulations!!!  Great news!