Anyone Want To Talk About the 2-1 Transition? Thread #14

[clairebear79]

Brooke - thanks for that - I totally understand what you are saying.    I probably am doing totally the wrong thing all the time - I'm just so scared to go too quickly as we've tried big jumps before and they've just always always crashed in an OT mess.  But I do realise that doing 5mins here & there it will take FOREVER to get to where we need to be.  And that by the time we get there the goalposts might have changed again.  I do think you are right that he may be further along the 2-1 than I realise. 

Right.....here's the BUT........As we've NEVER had a good routine going I have absolutely no idea what his day or night sleep needs actually are.  So I'm in an utter pickle about what he needs me to do with his routine.  Last week he was doing a 1hr AM nap and a 2hr PM nap, sleeping 10.5hrs or less at night.  This week we've had day after day of rubbish PM naps, whether AM nap is capped at 45mins or 1hr, BUT great night sleep.  We've been unlucky too, as 2 days this week he's been woken up from his PM nap by outside noise, or he might have slept longer/better.

He's also thrown me for a loop today.  This is what happened (forget that the day starts & ends early - I can live with that if he's doing long nights  ):

Wake: 5.35
Nap:   8.35 - 9.30      A = 3hrs       S = 55min (I woke him)
Nap: 12.40 - 2.30      A = 3hrs 10   S = 1hr 40 (woken by workmen outside at 1hr - took 10 mins to resettle.  I woke him at 2.30 to keep his feeds & BT on track)
BT:    6.05                A = 3h 35       

Total day = 12hrs 30   Total naps = 2hrs 35

After much deliberation, I decided to wake him at 2.30 rather than let him sleep on any longer, as he was due a bottle & I also wanted to preserve BT rather than stretch the day out too much.  We've done months of longer days & he's been sleeping SO much better at night since we shortened them.  I also wanted to see how he'd sleep tonight with a total of 2.5hrs day sleep as I was worried that he'd do a shorter night if he had any more day sleep.  He's been happy all afternoon but by 5pm was clearly pretty tired out (head shaking, laying head on floor, rubbing eyes etc) so we stuck with the 6pm BT. 

What's foxed me is that he woke 30 mins after BT & started crying.  Took 10mins or so to stop & resettle.  Then crying again after another 30mins.  And that's with 20mins more sleep today than yesterday, AND after a great night's sleep of 11.5hrs, AND a much shorter A time to BT).  So is he OT   Crying after BT is usually due to OT.  So does he need more day sleep than he's been having   Or less   Is it just that being UT in the AM has caused short naps & so OT by BT.....& the OT has now built up over the last few days I'm so so confused 

And Jenny if you read this you can tell me off as you told me not to cap his pm nap. 

[Edesanja]

Claire, it's about you doing your best for your lo so I'm not going to tell you off! Plus I'd have no right to anyway, I'm just a BTDT mama with the benefit of hindsight of doing this with 2 los!!

Brooke I think you've hit the nail on the head with those thoughts - I totally agree here (FWIW J naps were a complete and utter shambles from 3-6months. My problem was I was way behind the game. And I was interpreting UT as OT. I was SOOOO frustrated when I finally worked it out!)

However, he definitely seems to prefer a shorter A time in the morning, with longer A times as the day progresses.  I thought that was the idea of short am/long pm naps anyway   To keep the first 2 A times & the AM nap short to prevent build up of OT, then a nice long A time to BT after the longer PM nap.  Or have I got the wrong end of the stick   How long should his 1st A time be if we are doing short AM/long PM?

That's totally the right end of the stick, but we've also got the issue of the day starting and ending too early so we've got to shift that at the same time.

Your day yesterday was actually really really good and I wouldn't be 'worried' about it at all - you did a good job stretching out that first A and he got enough sleep for the day I'd say. No, I wouldn't have woken him because we don't actually want him to be on track for a 6pm bedtime - we don't want him to bed that early because we don't want him up at 530!! And we definitely don't want to get his body clock stuck to the early wake up if we can avoid it either. I think he should be able to manage a bit more A before bed too (just so you've got that in your head - you don't have to change it now, but just so you don't get concerned about him turning OT from A before bed).

The crying after BT is a hard one. Usually I'd say definitely OT, I just can't see how he could possibly be OT from the day. Is he teething? What about medicating at bedtime to see if that makes a difference. Both my kids have had early evening cry outs that I really couldn't link to OT.

What I am most perplexed about is
Yest
AM nap 1hr10
A 3hrs45
PM nap 1hr 10

Today
AM nap 55
A 3hrs10
PM nap 1hr40+

No wonder you are utterly confused!! The PM nap yesterday makes no sense. All I can suggest is that tomorrow you stick to a similar middle A time (err on the side of 5 mins more rather than any less). What's your plan? Are you going too continue with your 5 min increments or are you going to take a bold step?! If you do decide to take the extra 10mins off I think I'd keep the same 3hr10A time. If you do shorten it, I wouldn't go past 3hrs (10mins less A for the 10mins you've shaved off the nap).

Sorry, I've got to hurry - you're doing much better than I think you realise!! (and I agree that you're further through the 2-1 than you probably think, but no need to be scared, you can do this!)


Sabrina, I can say the same to you ' you're doing much better than I think you realise!

What if she only naps 2hrs? is that enough for her?

If she naps 1.5hrs+ just run with it. That's an 'acceptable' nap - yes we'd like longer and would hope as she gets used to it she will do more, but 1.5hrs is not 'bad'. She would need an early night though and possibly 2 naps the next day. And I think her nap was short yesterday because of not enough A time (IME I DIDN'T need to tweak just because my los 'seemed' tired. It usually just got me in a pickle somehow).

Becky, you've got such a tough case and I just don't know . I think I'd do a set nap and set bedtime too, but I'm not sure ? Don't even know what I'd aim for: maybe 1130 nap and 600 bedtime? But I'm just guessing really I'm sorry

[MommaBrooke]

Claire - Lets celebrate the good things first...he got a decent pm nap!  Yay!  For his wake time I think it's awesome that you got him to go for 3hrs A AND woke him before an hour was up  Sounds like bedtime was a bit of a mess, but hopefully tomorrow will be better.  This is what I would do in your shoes tomorrow.
1.  Keep his am nap at the same time, but cut another 5-10min off (if you are comfortable doing that .  Keep in mind that if he was doing 10.5hr nights last week with a 1hr + 2hr nap he will probably be fine with a 45min am nap.  If you keep it at the same time then he shouldn't be too fussed about it being cut a bit shorter, since only one thing would be changing from yesterday.  
2.  Go by cues for pm nap, but try to keep it around the same time as today (to minimize changes, and to keep it from being too early) and make sure he is well fed so that you don't get the urge to wake him up to eat    I used to do bottle before L's big nap, because she was usually too fussy to have a solid meal but if you think you can fit a solid meal in go for it.  Let him sleep as long as he wants!  With a 5:35 wake time don't be worrying about keeping a decent bedtime.  A good long pm nap may be what he needs to get shifted to a better wakeup time in the am (I know it's not a concern, but if it can resolve itself then it's much easier for you in the end).
3.  Go by cues for bed, but don't put him down any earlier than you did tonight...I would think he could easily do 4hrs before bed on a good pm nap (since he does increasing A through the day).

As to crying after bed...I find we don't really get OT unless she's really really pushed her A.  Like when she wanted to refuse her pm naps before she was ready.  The first day of one nap for her she woke and cried, but went right back to sleep, I didn't even have to intervene and it hasn't happened since.  I think in this phase it's more likely to be UT wakeups than OT and I've found that the UT wakeups happen at any time for us, not necessarily after midnight like they used to.

[emily3434]

clare - I have to say we have very similar situation -- my LO likes a short first A - but since stretching it to 3 hours, we now get awesome 11-12 hour nights, with no more EW!!!

Also, just because he always wanted a short first A time, I had a really hard time with the rest of the A times.  Turns out, he can easily do 4 hours before bed, regardless of the pm nap. so, if he does a 40 min. nap (usually because he poos), or a 1.5 hour nap, he can still do 4 hours before bed.

my lo was also waking a lot after bed.  when he was younger, I knew it was OT, and I still feel confident that is was.  however, now, at almost 10 months I have realized (over the past few weeks) that waking after bedtime meant that he was not tired enough to stay asleep - he wanted to get out and play! (even though he was crying) once I pushed to the 4 hours, he sleeps great.

FYI, we only get 2.5 hours MAX of sleep a day.  usually I'm lucky to get 2 hours of daytime sleep - BUT I will take the trade off with a 11.5-12 hour night!  and he seems happy enough.

good luck.  I know this is not easy.   I think I've got my little man on a good routine, and things will change in a week

[clairebear79]

Hi all

Some really great comments here - thanks for all your support.  I'll write back more later.

We got a 4.30am WU here today  - not really sure what to make of that at all   10.5hrs last night - BUT the past 3-4 days we've had 11.5hrs.

I'm trying to keep him going, but keeping to yesterday's nap time of 8.35 means a 4hr A time to start the day - follow it up with a 50min nap & to me that spells a recipe for OT disaster.  He's now been up almost 3.5hrs & looks absolutely exhausted & is starting to fuss so I think I have no choice today but to put him down at 8am.  Its going to be a long day. 

I'm convinced there is a build up of OT at play from several days of rubbish PM naps.

[clairebear79]

Right - so I'm really confused by the WU this morning.  Whenever I try & push out his morning A time, this is what happens.  I feel like whenever I start meddling with his sleep, rather than PD when he shows me he is tired - it always goes wrong somehow.  So was it the longer A times in the am (plus poor pm naps over the past 4 days) that made him OT- or was it simply that the A time before BT was too short & he was UT to bed   I had worried about this being an issue (one of the reasons I woke him from the pm nap) but he was absolutely utterly shattered for bed last night.  And the crying after BT makes me think OT even more so.  I don't think its teething related either.

Am I just looking at this all wrong   I feel so lost.  

Brooke/Jenny - WWYD with today, given how early he woke?  I like your plan Brooke, but don't know if I'll be able to keep with it today.  I've let him lead me as to when he should be PD this morning & around 8am he got really fussy & started to cry.  So he was asleep at 8.15am (A = 3h 45min).  I didn't feel I could keep him up until 8.35am.  And he's just woken at the 30min mark & cried out.  Surely this can't be UT can it?  Can they do 30min WU's if they are UT So should I still cut the am nap to 50mins to keep us on track for a nice pm nap or do I allow a long nap in the am since he did a long A time

Also Jenny - you mentioned about stretching his last A time to get BT pushed out later so he will WU later.  I want to ask your thoughts on this as we have for months pushed & pushed BT even though he was EWing & have never found that this has helped our situation.  In fact all its served to do is make him more OT, as he has napped badly AND had to contend with a day that was 13-14hrs long.  He's slept the longest nights EVER in the last week since I shortened his day to <13hrs, but of course that may just be down to him doing rubbish pm naps. 

I have to admit I'm REALLY struggling with spotting his tired cues.  We rarely get a yawn before I PD for his naps.  You all seem to think I PD too early for his naps & he is UT - so does the absence of yawning back that up   He didn't even yawn this morning after 3h 45min A time.  BUT what he does do is start shaking his head (he does this in bed when going off to sleep) and stops what he is doing & lays his head on the floor, and he gets really fussy.  He will also rub his eyes, but I don't always rely on that given that it can be a sign of boredom.  I've always felt that a yawn is a really late tired sign for Oliver.  If I get yawns I usually get OT naps.

Emily - what is your routine atm?  DS can also do a long A time to BT - in fact all week he's been doing 11.5-12hr nights after a short PM nap followed by a 4-5hr A time to BT.  I do suspect though that the combination of short PM nap & long A to BT might have had a hand in what's happened today for us.

I'll be interested to hear your thoughts ladies.  He is a tough nut to crack!xx

[*Amy*]

Hi ladies so we had a good day yest but a nw form 1-3 she was having a little party in her cot!
So she woke for the day at 6am and I am following the two yawn rule. After the second yawn I put her into bed! So she went down this am at 9.40am she has been asleep now for 2 hours 15 mins. I am going to let her sleep 3 hours max and then wake her. And aim for a 30/45 min cn at about 4 and then a bed time at 7.30
Yest went
Wake 5
Nap 9 (no nw previous night)
Wake 11
Sleep 2.20
Wake 3.45
Sleep 7.30
Nw 1-3am

Today so far
Wake 6
Sleep 9.40 (nw of 1-3am so obviously tireder than yesterday!)
Wake  she just woke now at 12
Nap 3.30/4 for 30mkns or 45 mins which one?? Not sure how the rest of the day should go?? Any suggestions?

[Edesanja]

First of all, I'm confused about these comments:

I'm convinced there is a build up of OT at play from several days of rubbish PM naps.

I do suspect though that the combination of short PM nap

because yesterday you woke him from a 1hr40min nap And I'm very surprised that you say:

but he was absolutely utterly shattered for bed last night

when he had 3hrs35mins after a good nap. That doesn't seem excessive at all to me.

You did a good job stretching him to 3hrs45mins today! I'm just concerned about you not continuing to stretch out his morning A time because I just don't want things to get worse, IYKWIM. He woke at 4.30am this morning. If you have to put him to bed even earlier this morning and he does another 10.5hr night you get to 3am which is just getting out of control ridiculously early!!

So he was asleep at 8.15am (A = 3h 45min).  I didn't feel I could keep him up until 8.35am.  And he's just woken at the 30min mark & cried out.  Surely this can't be UT can it?  Can they do 30min WU's if they are UT  So should I still cut the am nap to 50mins to keep us on track for a nice pm nap or do I allow a long nap in the am since he did a long A time

I'm sure that he was crying out because of OT, but the question is whether it is altogether a bad thing. He might have 'needed' to go down sooner than 815 but I think it's better for you to have kept him up as long as you can in the push to stretch his A time over making sure he's not and everything continuing to spiral earlier. I just don't think you're going to avoid OT at some point in the effort to resurrect thing here. Today I probably would have let him sleep as long as he wanted in the AM and then done a decently long A time (the longest you know he's done a good nap on) in the hope that he will do another long nap so you can get on track that way.

When you talk about tired cues - they are something I've never been able to rely on with either of mine. They were way too unpredictable or non-existent. I had to work on A times, it was my only hope. So I don't have experience going off cues.

Also Jenny - you mentioned about stretching his last A time to get BT pushed out later so he will WU later.  I want to ask your thoughts on this as we have for months pushed & pushed BT even though he was EWing & have never found that this has helped our situation.  In fact all its served to do is make him more OT, as he has napped badly AND had to contend with a day that was 13-14hrs long.  He's slept the longest nights EVER in the last week since I shortened his day to <13hrs, but of course that may just be down to him doing rubbish pm naps.

Does this include times when you've pushed his A times out as well? Because it's possible that he just doesn't have the need to do the longer nights to do the extra sleep overnight to get the later wake up time if his A times don't necessitate the long naps to stretch out the day. If putting him to bed early was better because he was making up for the lost sleep and doing 12hrs+ it woud be worth it, but if he's going to do the same/similar amount whether he has a conservative bedtime or you stretch the A a bit, I'd stretch the A so you've got the chance of him waking up later!
Hang in there, Claire. The weekend is coming. Can you give him to Daddy to deal with for the day and go out?  (I'm saying this knowing I probably would have been too much of a control freak to do it myself!!) Sometimes you just get a fresh perspective with a new person that doesn't have all the preconceived 'rules' for your lo's sleep that you as a mum have for him. Plus it would be good for you to go out and have fun and not have to think about naps for awhile - then even if no miracles occur while you're away you might be in a better space to give it another shot. Just a thought!

[scucci1979]

Good morning ladies.  Just to add we had a horrible night last night. from 12-4:30am she was waking every sleep cycle. i don't know what it was. She was medicated. She wanted to sleep but couldn't. Even when I tried to pick her up she would arch her back and freak out.  She has a little runny nose so am not sure if she is getting a cold or if it is teething. I am really tired this morning.

[clairebear79]

Hi Jenny - My comments are confusing aren't they.  Last week he was doing a 2hr pm nap followed by a 4hr A time to BT. This week his pm naps have all been cut short (either poo, or woken by outside noise, or UT?) meaning his A time to BT was even longer.  Whatever the reason, I'm saying I think there may have been a build up of OT from days of this - hence yesterday he slept a much longer nap because he's worn out.  It must seem absolutely crazy to you that I woke him, & TBH I really didn't want to, but I did it for a couple of reasons:

1) 3 hrs day sleep usually seems to result in a shorter night for us - I was trying to keep his total day sleep to 2.5hrs to test the theory.
2) I was trying to keep the day to 12.5hrs as our days have a habit of creeping too long & he ends up OT
3) With 2) in mind I also needed to make sure we had enough time to fit in his pm milk feed, dinner & his BT feed before bed at 6pm.

BUT it left us with an A time to BT (3.35hrs), which is shorter than he usually does.  He truly looked tired out & I figured if he was OT then EBT usually helps, so it wouldn't matter that the A time was short since it'd help him catch up on the lost sleep.  

Does that make more sense?!

Clearly I have absolutely no idea what my son needs though.  He can't be OT can he or he wouldn't have woken up happy at 4.30  

I'm so lost - all I seem to do is mess it all up whenever I meddle with his sleep.  You know what - I woke him from that nap this morning after 55mins again - & took him to playgroup & he's been utterly miserable & screaming at me to be PD for a nap since 11.30 (2h 15 A time) & I'm keeping him up until at least 3hrs.  So we are both miserable.  Why do we have to do all of this anyway???  Wake them from naps etc?  Isnt it more natural to just let them sleep when they are ready, wake when they want & figure it out on their own

As for going off tired cues v going off A times - we've never had a good routine going for any longer than a few days at a time, so I really don't have a clue what A times Oliver can even do consistenly  Plus he'll do a great nap one day after a certain A time, so I think 'right I'll repeat that tomorrow' & then he'll do a totally different nap.  There's just no rhyme nor reason to it.  So I've just been trying to follow his cues as I thought that was the whole essence of BW anyway??  Would I be better just finding what A time gives a good nap & then stick to it regardless of whether he tells me he's tired before that point?

WRT BT being later - we tried this when DS was repeatedly waking in the 4am hour & stuck with a 6.30/7pm BT AND long A times to try & get through the day & we saw no improvement at all.  It just always seemed to backfire.  In the last week he has done longer nights as we have kept to an EBT - but that may have only been due to him missing out on sleep during the day & so tagging it on to his night.  If this is what he's going to do though - wouldn't I be better to keep a shorter day & just cut out day sleep in order to give him the extra A time?  Then again, why didn't he do that last night?

As for today I have no idea what sort of BT to aim for.  Yes 6pm is early but he was up at 4.30.  That will be a 13.5hr day just to get to 6pm.

I am going out at the weekend as it happens - to a spa for the day & I can't wait  .  DH is looking after Oliver but he is clueless about his naps & when to PD so we'll have to wait & see what happens!  It'll probably go a lot better than when I look after him.  

As for the next few days - do I just keep pushing that 1st A time?  Until it gets to what?  And do I still keep a short AM nap or are you suggesting I should be doing a long AM nap & try to get a decent pm nap as well to keep OT at bay?  Because I'm worried he will get OT from these long AM A times if I keep capping his naps.

I'll report back later & let you know how he's got on today.  I just realised that is an epic post!xx

[Bex09]

Hugs to you all with EW, NW and anything else sent to try us!

Claire - only on really quick but wanted to say you can get happy EW when LO is OT. My DD was shattered yesterday after 3 days of rubbish nights and rubbish naps in daycare. Way, way OT by BT just due to lack of sleep and yet she woke happy as Larry at 4.37am this morning!!! OT does such strange things to LOs I find and it totally throws the rule book out the window.

Also I can never rely on sleepy cues either. Like Jenny said ours are either way too early or non existent. C can yawn 1h after waking and rub her eyes but then go on to do a 5h A time and a 2.5h sleep! So no way she was tired after 1h. I too follow A times now, but it took me months of struggling to finally realise this. Good luck.

[aidenmc]

Bex09 - I agree about waking happy. DS almost always wakes happy from naps or in the morning. Also he can seem quite tired in the morning (well, at least clingy and fussing) but now he almost never yawns or rubs his eyes until we are in his bedroom on the change table. This is even on days when he has been up for 8 hours due to failed pm nap.

I was wondering what routine you have now for your lo, Bex. I am thinking I should go to set nap and bedtime regardless of wake time or anything else.

Claire I totally know what you mean about figuring it all out. When I finally started having ds try to fall asleep in his crib (instead of in my arms, where I could force him to sleep iykwim) everything went out the window. We have gone from 3.5hr A times to 5-6 as he just refuses the pm nap. I also tried set naps and pushing that morning A time a few months ago and he did end up so OT and harder to settle. But now that he is older all those old rules I had seem to have changed. I no longer look for tired cues. He is rarely suffering from tiredness during the day. The only time he still yawns outside of his room is at about 8am, even though he's only been up 3 or less hours. Anyway, I really hope things settle down for you.

[clairebear79]

So he could be OT then.  In which case surely I should be cutting A times to eliminate it, not increasing them?  I thought if you try pushing A times when they are already OT, all it will cause is an OT mess & that you need them to be on a level playing field before you try & change things

Today he's more utterly miserable than I've seen him in weeks.  He's just woken naturally from a 1hr 45min pm nap after 3hrs 15 A time & is crying his little heart out.  All I can assume is that he's still tired.  Have I pushed too much doing a 3hr 45 1st A time when only 2 days ago he was doing 2h 15???

See - all I do is make it worse.  All the time.  He needs a better mummy than me. 

[aidenmc]

Oh Claire. I have felt exactly the same thing. Sleep has dominated my life since ds3 was born. I have found my moods go up and down depending on how he sleeps. I feel guilty when he is tired or fussy and I 'know' he needs to sleep. Then I am frustrated after I have spent 1.5 hours trying to get him down for a nap, watching him get progressively upset as he clearly does not want to sleep, despite appearing tired. Then I get annoyed when I see friends with babies who don't really have to think much about sleep because their lo's just seem better at it. Then I think again that I should be trying for 2 naps as he clearly needs it, so i try it and then fail again. I have said to dh, that i feel like i am just making things worse.

Is there anything that soothes your lo when he's so fussy? I have just stuck ds in a sink full of warm water. I have been doing that for months when he gets fussy. It seems to be very calming and he will sit and play in there for ages without fussing. I know he is tired now after 5 hrs A time, but with it only being 10am, he will have a long wait till his BT. Part of me thinks maybe he will sleep longer if I put him down now (but the last time I put him down after 5 hrs A he only slept 40 minutes  , so who really knows?). It would be so nice if I knew the answer to the puzzle that is ds' sleep.

The only thing I know is that they get better with age. having a 10 and 5 yo have taught me that. My fussier sleeper of those two is still not as good as his older brother, but his occasional difficulty falling asleep or NW are so manageable, that I don't have to think about their sleep. And I know that I was in the same stew with my life dominated by ds2's sleep at the same age.

So, now I have to remind myself too, this will get better Claire. And what my DH sometimes says may be true. It doesn't matter what we do sometimes, they will just sleep or not regardless of our efforts.

[scucci1979]

Claire, don't say that. You are a terrific mommy. You love adore your lo and you are trying your best to help him.  To me that makes you a fantastic mommy. You are not sitting down and saying I don't give a sh*t.  So many hugs.  

We worry so much for our los and that is normal. I promise things will get easier.  You are just at a tough age right now b/c they are changing so rapidly. One day they can do high A times, then the next they can't!  You will get there. Baby steps. 1hr and 45min nap is excellent. Do you suspect any pain? I think you said he is touchy!
Some los just wake up cranky and take awhile to adapt.  You have these lovely ladies to help you sort your lo out.  

Amy, I would do no more then a 45min nap.