What are average A times for 21 m old DS? My DS sleeping regressed!

[KathG]

Hi there

I have kept a close eye on this forum throughout my DS's first year and into his 2nd yr.  I juggled A times to try make him sleep through his 30 min naps when he was 4 - 6 months and tried Wake-to-sleep and HTTJ (the latter worked 70% of attempts).

Now DS is 21 months old, still on the low side of sleep as he's always been (maybe low sleep needs?), but where he settled into 10 - 11 hr nights and 2 - 2.5 hr day naps from 16 - 18 months, he's now regressed to 9.5 hr nights with EWs of 4:45 or 5 am. 

The problem NOW is that he has to have his day nap at 10.30 am latest (to give an A time of 5 hours after a 9 hour night) and because he is not sleeping 2 - 2.5 hours to make up for lost night sleep easily anymore like he was a couple weeks ago, he's awake by 12 noon and has a long afternoon and is OT by bedtime.
He was able to sleep 2 - 3 hrs if he had a short night but, he's developed this internal alarm  EXACTLY 1hr20 in his day nap, regardless of how little sleep he had that night, (its like that 30 min alarm clock when they are younger) and whereas I used to be able to lay him back down after his 1hr20 jerk and cry, stroke him and he would go back to sleep, now its become a battle and I cant get him back to sleep. He just sits up and cries if I try to persist.  He is grumpy and clingy if he's woken up at 1hr20 and his total sleep for night and day is 11 hours.  so I know he needs more but his body is not allowing him to get it.

Where am I going wrong with his A times? 
If he sleeps 9.30 - 10 hrs at night, I give him 5 - 5hrs15 A time. If he sleeps 11 hours at night (15% of the time!), I give him 5hrs 50 of A time. That used to work for him. Now nothing works... short or long A times after a shorter night have no different effect. He just wakes up after a short nap with a cry and won't go back to sleep! When he wakes up after 2 hours, he wakes up talking and singing.

He has been going to morning creche for 2.5 months now. In the 1st month he would come home at 11 and fall asleep easily and sleep (with some help thru the 1hr20 jerk) until 2 - 2.5 hrs.   Its only in the past 2 - 3 weeks that he battles to reach a total of 12 hours sleep in 24 hours and is then not his normal happy self.

Is it all about OT or is there some other mysterious explanation for these kids not sleeping when their body so desparetly needs it.
Why is this so difficult?!

[~inbalance~]

I would say he is definitely OT, but it might not be directly related to an A time issue.  I found from this age sleep disruptions were less routine related and more often related to other factors like teeth or developmental changes.  Is there any chance your LO is teething right now?  Has he learned any new skills, had a language explosion, or seems to comprehend more of what is going on? 

[KathG]

Hi there
Thanks for a reply! 
yip, OT I would say.
He woke at 4:20 am this morning not crying but with watery tired eyes and red eyebrows. tired! i think it was the cold though this morning but he wouldnt go back to sleep.

Will check the teething. Surely if its teething, the teething pain would come at any time during nap and wouldnt coincide with his habitual wakings?  He doesnt stir at all during the night other than a little yelp around midnight around 4am, both which he's always done in his sleep so can self-settle. So if their is teething pain involved, wouldnt he be stirring or fussing randonly throughout the night sleep and his day naps? 

Developmental?  stil learning words but at the same rate for a while. No new skills that I have seen - always run fast; been on motorbike for ages now.  He does comprehend so well compared to his ability to talk - I give him many instructions and he carries them out. Not sure if that is something new and accelerated that is affecting him...

[~inbalance~]

It's always tricky when they're learning new things, sometimes it makes it hard for them to settle down and shut their brains off for some rest.

Can you post his routine as best as you can?  If he is OT and waking so early, maybe you need to try a really early nap, and then a really early bedtime to try and get him caught up.

I know what you mean though, I remember DS1 going through these phases where he just wouldn't get the sleep he needed.  It was very frustrating.

[KathG]

Hi there.
I can try and remember his routine times for past few days... wont post it now as need to do a memory recall but I  what you suggest is exactly what I did.

His morning nap began at 10am on Sunday after a very short night sleep. 10 am is v early for him at this age and instead of him doing a nice long catch up sleep (like he used to after a shorter night), he wakes to this internal body clock after 1hr20 sleep.   I used to be able to stroke him back to sleep within 2 mins but these days he resists it.
So, it kind of back-fired, as then he woke at 11:20 and had such a long afternoon until that evening when he fell asleep 18:20.   
I then thought, well, with going to bed so early, he will have a nice long sleep as that is also what used to happen - an early bedtime used to result in a later morning wake and a good catch up of sleep.
This time, he woke at 4:20!  so the cycle just got more entrenched of early morning wake, early day nap, long afternoon stretch and and and.

Yesterday he had an early snap at 10:10 and jerked awake at 1h20 again but this time let me put him back to sleep quickly. He was v tired.   Slept 2hr30 so totalled 12h30 in total yest so I was happy.  Thought he was on the road to recoevery BUT last night he had a NW at 3am and after leaving him his cot as we always do, and he normally can put himself back to sleep but only after 2 hours of talking, this time he got distressed and kept calling and crying. So I put him in our bed and it took him 1.5 hours to fall asleep.
This kind of NW is not uncommon for him. They started at 9 months and come irregularly and it can be when he's having such a good sleep cycle that I wonder if he's had too much sleep and so wakes at night.
This time, he is on a low sleep cycle and still doing NWs so there is no pattern here. 

Sorry to be so tedious with the details... but I am so lost as to what do to.
I just want to call in Tracy or one of you into my home and have the problem laid open to me before my eyes! :-)

[~inbalance~]

I just want to call in Tracy or one of you into my home and have the problem laid open to me before my eyes! :-)

I have had this feeling too.  That is how I found this website! 

I don't think this is a routine issue.  I think it's a developmental blip, maybe thrown in with some teething but I wouldn't count on teeth being the problem.  But I doubt huge amounts of tweaking will make a huge difference.  Rather you likely have to ride out the phase, and give him the most opportunities to get caught up.  So early naps, extending naps if you can, and early bedtimes.

I'm sure you realize that if you let him in your bed it could become a bigger problem that will need fixing as well.  What if you stayed in his room on the floor instead?

During these sorts of phases I would always wrack my brain for ways I could help DS1 settle into a more restful sleep.  I would try homeopathic or herbal remedies that were supposed to 'calm' his mind, or would take him to the osteopath or chiropractor for adjustments.  Probably out of desperation, you know?  lol  I don't know if you are into any of those things but I swear they got us through some rough patches.

[KathG]

hi there
Thanks for reply. I have been so tired recently from this unsettled sleeping of DS that I even felt too tired to go onto the forum and focus on sleep strategies etc.   
Another 4 am wake up this morning... mum is going a bit wonky now!  9 hours sleep for a little toddler at night... sounds abnormal when all toddlers are having these long 11 hour nights??
Anyways, I put him down at 9am today which is a 5 hour awake time. IS that too long considering the short night he had? 
He went down fairly easily but yes, I have been giving him homeopathic rescue remedy drops and pills. I think they help!  they dont help in the early morning when he wakes and I hope to put him back to sleep, but I think it works to calm him before nap time.
I need them for myself too!

I just want some normality back in my life... I feel like I am ruled by his sleep and am running on empty right now.
It doesnt help being pregnant, wanting time to do yoga for baby 2 and this is happening.

Alas, I hope this 3 week thing doenst last much longer!


 

[~inbalance~]

Anyways, I put him down at 9am today which is a 5 hour awake time. IS that too long considering the short night he had?

No, you don't want to have him napping to early anyway because to him it's just like going back to bed which can encourage the EWs.

Have you tried something like a groclock?

[KathG]

what is a gro clock?  seen them mentioned but don't know anything about them.

True about to bed too early - after a 9 hour sleep Sat night (way too short - almost like an adult's sleep!), I put him down after 5 hours A time (9:15am) and he slept for 3 hours.  Making up for lost morning sleep, using the nap to continue his night sleep.  I know that danger and had it before with him.
I had to put him down at 6pm last night as his afternoon was long (6 hours A time) and he fell asleep at 18:20, very tired. BUT he woke up at 4:45am this morning because 10hr20 night sleep was in fact enough for him.
So, we are onto a bad cycle now where if I put him down later today for his nap (6 Hr A time) to get him out of this early nap cycle, he will do a 1hr20 nap (wakes up with a jerk crying) as he will have been overtired when I put him down.   
sigh oh sigh!

Looking forward to groclock info. :-)

[~inbalance~]

Here is a groclock:  http://www.gro.co.uk/Gro-clock.html
I have never used one personally but I know a lot of parents have had success with them.  There is a thread with some success stories here:  http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=176864.0
The company is UK based and I am not sure how easy it is to get them around the world, but I have heard other parents just making their own similar products with lights on timers.  I think this is a good age to introduce this sort of thing because they are old enough to understand the concept.  I think basically you set the clock to go on at a certain time, and you explain to LO that they are not allowed to get up before that time.  It doesn't always make them go back to sleep, but they learn to stay in bed until that time, and in some cases hopefully fall back asleep.

With the nap, can you gradually push it back to try and avoid OT?  So start at 9:30, then 9:45, then 10, etc.?  Rather than just jumping to a much later time.