Author Topic: Weaning 8.5 month old...please help, so lost  (Read 1776 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline dancer1007

  • New & Learning The Ropes!
  • *
  • Showing Appreciation 0
  • Posts: 12
  • Location:
Weaning 8.5 month old...please help, so lost
« on: July 18, 2011, 13:42:04 pm »
Hey ladies,  I am in desperate need of help.  I have far surpassed many of my breastfeeding goals, and am so happy to have gone this long.  I would love to go to a year now, but I am at an emotional breaking point because of exhaustion.  DS is up off and on allll night long.  I have tried many things.  I have tried stretching daytime feeds because I thought there may be a snacking habit.  This is hard, but occasionally we can get to 3 hours between a feed.  DS has a huge nurse to sleep association and screams his head off when I try to put him down for one of his two naps without feeding.  DH puts him down at night after I feed and he has gotten used to that, and does rock him back down for his first few wakings before 12 am.  After that I am having a riough time and have been bringing him into bed after his 2 wakings after 12, I just get too exhausted.  I know that this is a lot of the problem.  I need to wean, or at least get to the point where he is only eating once or twice a night and stretching his feeds in the day.  Here is his schedule

bf off and on from 3-630 when he wakes.  Usually either another bf or breakfast about an hour later, oatmeal.
nurse before first nap
nurse about three hours after last feed
lunch usually one jar of veggies
nurse before second nap at around 130
nurse after 3 hour
dinner usually a jar of meat
nurse around 630/7
bedtime
and then off and on all night

I have replaced the nursing session after his second nap with a bottle and he is finally taking it although it does take him about 30 minutes as opposed to the 3 minute nursing sessions.

I just don't know where to start...please please give me some advice.

Should we start giving bottles at night instead of nursing?

He is just becoming a terror, I can't even hold him because he just tries biting me over and over again, sucking my arms etc to get me to nurse him.  I want my happy baby and mommy back again!

Offline ~ Vik ~

  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 224
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 5597
  • Location: Ontario, Canada
Re: Weaning 8.5 month old...please help, so lost
« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2011, 02:01:49 am »
First huge (((hugs))) (you sound exhausted!) and CONGRATULATIONS for making it this far with bfing ;D :-*

Second, I have a question for you:  Do you really want to quit breastfeeding, or do you really want to quit being up half the night and using your breasts to get your little guy to sleep?  I'm sorry if I'm out of line, but all of your reasons for weaning are regarding sleep, feeding really frequently through the day, bringing him to bed...  I am more that happy to help you come up with a weaning plan if that is truly what you want, but I need to be honest and say that (from your post) it's not breastfeeding that's your problem, it's the prop that feeding to sleep has become.  It is possible to wean that feeding to sleep prop without weaning breastfeeding entirely.  It's definitely a challenge (but then so is weaning in itself!) but it's doable. 

Your lo doesn't have the skills for independent sleep it seems - even those earlier evening wakings that your DH helps with, he's still using a prop (rocking) to help get him back down.  Have you thought about pu/pd or gradual withdrawl to try and get him sleeping independently?  If he has those skills then he won't need you to nurse him ten thousand times through the night to get back to sleep because he will be able to do it himself, yk?

Like I said, I am more than happy to help you come up with a weaning plan if that is truly what you want.  But if you're only weaning thinking that the cessation of breastfeeding is going to solve all your other problems too you might be disappointed with the result.  Let me know what you think, and I can help or I can move your post over to the props or pu/pd board (whichever you prefer) to get you some advice there. xx
D ~ dairy, egg, peanut/nut and mustard allergies
Proud to have breastfed for over 24 months!


Offline dancer1007

  • New & Learning The Ropes!
  • *
  • Showing Appreciation 0
  • Posts: 12
  • Location:
Re: Weaning 8.5 month old...please help, so lost
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2011, 18:33:27 pm »
I agree it is some type of prop, and I don't really want to stop nursing until a year, so I would love some other help thanks!

Along with it being a prop I have also come to the conclusion that ds is nursing so frequently because he got into the habit of nursing such a short amount of time from one side and only getting 2-4 ounces at a feeding, therefore he has to nurse more frequently  to get the amount of calories that he needs.  I discussed with a lactation consultant and it seems this is a lot of the problem.  I am lost on how to get him to take more at a feeding and stretch the feeds because at this point (he's been doing it so long) my suppply has become a lot less so he is getting what he needs and then my supply goes down until the next feeding.  I'd love some advice on this as well as on the props. 

I am opposed to CIO and gradual withdrawal but am open to pu/pd and no cry sleep solution type of help.  Thank you!

Offline ~ Vik ~

  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 224
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 5597
  • Location: Ontario, Canada
Re: Weaning 8.5 month old...please help, so lost
« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2011, 01:40:27 am »
I'm happy to hear your opposed to CIO - so was Tracy Hogg, and it is to her baby whispering methods that this site is dedicated :)

I am a bit confused though that you're opposed to gradual withdrawl but open to the no cry sleep solution - the NCSS is really a specific method of gradual withdrawl ???

I can definitely help with the frequent feeds, can you post what your day/night currently looks like?  (Maybe post one 24h cycle with specific times) Is your routine consistent?  How is your ds doing with solids?  Is it possible that he's teething?  Have you medicated in case that is contributing to the frequent wakings?  Does he sleep in his own room/crib or yours?  Is your DH on board to help if needed?

I will see if I can get some props eyes on this for you too, or maybe move it over once I see what's happening :)
D ~ dairy, egg, peanut/nut and mustard allergies
Proud to have breastfed for over 24 months!


Offline dancer1007

  • New & Learning The Ropes!
  • *
  • Showing Appreciation 0
  • Posts: 12
  • Location:
Re: Weaning 8.5 month old...please help, so lost
« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2011, 18:57:42 pm »
Maybe I am just a little confused by Gradual extinction.   Maybe that is the same as NCSS, in which case I am not opposed.  I just don't agree with letting baby cry for any period without contact from me.  Anyhow, here is what a day typically looks like.  We definitely do have a pattern, it just isn't what I would like at this stage.

wake up anywhere from 6:30-7:00, nurse
8:30-solids, usually a bowl of oatmeal and an ounce of fruit
3 hours after waking nap.  I have been trying to do away with the nursing before this feed by slowly taking away the time he is nursing or having dh put him down on weekends so he doesn't nurse to sleep
He then usually sleeps anywhere from 45 minutes to an hour and a half.
He usually acts like he is starving at this point, and I have been trying to get to three hours after his last feed.  So say, I nurse around 10-10:30
Lunch: 12:00 3.5 oz of veggie
nurse 1:30
down for nap around 1"30-2
nurse 3 hours after last feed (415-430)
dinner 530: a protein he usually only wants around 2-3 oz of solids here.
nurse 7 and down to sleep
nurse at 11.  He sometimes wakes two times before this but DH will rock him back down
then he wakes anywhere from every 2 hours after and on a good night he will just eat again at 3 and then down till 530 when I bring him into bed.

We currently rock him to sleep and he is slowly getting better with getting put down while he is in the 7 mile stare but not usually before this

Thank you so much for your help!

Offline Smurfette

  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 63
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 2054
  • Location: Wpg, MB, Canada
Re: Weaning 8.5 month old...please help, so lost
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2011, 15:35:25 pm »
Just wanted to say *hugs* to you! Good for you for being open to still nursing, despite what you're going through!!!

Offline ~ Vik ~

  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 224
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 5597
  • Location: Ontario, Canada
Re: Weaning 8.5 month old...please help, so lost
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2011, 19:22:10 pm »
Maybe I am just a little confused by Gradual extinction.   Maybe that is the same as NCSS, in which case I am not opposed.  I just don't agree with letting baby cry for any period without contact from me.
That explains the confusion - *extinction* is an extreme form of CIO, and gradual extinction is probably a form of controlled crying.  Gradual *withdrawl* is a gradual method of removing props and teaching independent sleep with a minimum of crying.  It can take some time (the gradual part) but it's great for bubs who don't respond well to pu/pd and for parents who have difficulty with the crying of pu/pd (even though bub is never left to cry alone).

I think you're having bad nights for a combination of reasons:
- feed to sleep and rocking props:  because your lo never falls asleep independently, when he stirs and wakes through the night (which we all do, babies to adults) he is unable to put himself back to sleep without a prop so he cries for you.
- routine troubles (short naps leading to OT, frequent feeds)
- possibly teething pain?  He's definitely the right age for teeth to be causing troubles.  Have you tried pain meds to see if that has an impact?

I used gw to wean patting about a year or so ago...  D was going through some wicked teething, and we found that whoever was putting him down had to pat his bum in the crib until he was asleep, then start patting softer and softer and slower and slower and sneak out of the room.  Then the teeth broke through so we tried to go back to our old routine (just laying him in his crib, patting for a minute or so, then saying goodnight and leaving) but when we stopped patting he would roll over and look at us and start to cry when we tried to leave!  Oops...

I patted until he relaxed, then started patting more softly, then just rested my hand on his bum until he was asleep.  I kept that up for about a few days, gradually shortening the time that I was patting, but he was still falling asleep with my hand on his bum.  Then I started taking my hand away before he was asleep, but still standing right by his crib as if my hand was there, even though I wasn't touching him, kwim?  Again, I kept that up for a few days, taking my hand away earlier each time but always still standing by his crib until he fell asleep.  Then I did everything the same, but stepped away from the crib when I took my hand away.  This was probably the hardest step, as he rolled over and looked at me when I moved away.  He didn't cry though, so I just stayed 'goodnight sweat pea' (our key phrase) and stayed in the room until he fell asleep.  Couple days of that and he no longer rolled over to look at me, so I would say our phrase and then leave the room.  The whole process took less than 2 weeks, probably because he had been sleeping pretty much independently before so it was just getting back to it.  To this day we still do a bit of a back rub after we tuck him in (maybe 2min if I had to guess?) but it's just a nice part of our bedtime routine and it helps him settle :)

So in your case, for the rocking, the steps might look like (I'm assuming you're rocking until asleep):
1. rock until the 5 mile stare, place in crib right away keeping your hand/arms on him (with or without motion) so that he feels your presence if he stirs.
2. rock until almost asleep, place in crib keeping your hands/arms on him (w/ or w/out motion) until he is asleep
3. rock until almost asleep, place in crib keeping your hands lightly on him
4. rock for less time, place in crib keeping hands lightly on him
... keep rocking for less time, placing him in his crib awake but relaxed with your hands lightly on him
... get to the point where you're not rocking, just holding before placing him in the crib
... take your hands away earlier and earlier as he's falling asleep (staying by his crib so he feels your presence)
... get further away from the crib, until you're out the door :)

Those are just some examples, but keep in mind that the nice thing about gw is that you can make it work to fit you and your lo.  And if you enjoy a little rocking (the way I don't mind rubbing D's back before sleep) you can incorporate it into your routine, the important thing is to make sure that it's not necessary for him to fall asleep.  And I would keep everything else in your bedtime routine the same and only change the prop that you're gwing. 

I will see if I can get some EASY eyes to have a look at your routine :)
D ~ dairy, egg, peanut/nut and mustard allergies
Proud to have breastfed for over 24 months!


Offline dancer1007

  • New & Learning The Ropes!
  • *
  • Showing Appreciation 0
  • Posts: 12
  • Location:
Re: Weaning 8.5 month old...please help, so lost
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2011, 01:06:34 am »
Thank you so much!  That was a great response, and very helpful.  I will definitely start using this approach.

After a very long week and lots of talks with my husband we have come to a compromise. I will continue nursing DS first feed of the day (or last night feed of the night, anytime after 5 am) and the last feed before nighttime. 

We are going to try and stick to only a dream feed at 11 and then no feeds until 5 am.  I am of course very worried about this considering ds throws himself at me and wants to nurse, so it should be interesting.  Other than those two nursings we will be giving bottles for the other two big feedings (11 am and 3pm) 

We tried bottles for these two today and the first feed ds took 6 oz but it took about 45 minutes.  The next feed he only took 2.5 oz and refused to have anymore milk until 7 pm when I nursed him.

He is making up for his small feedings during the day with his night feeds, thus why we feel we need to wean them.

Any thoughts?

Offline Jiinx

  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 148
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 5969
  • Location: Toronto, ON
Re: Weaning 8.5 month old...please help, so lost
« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2011, 02:06:27 am »
Hi darling,
 Just wanted to offer more hugs to you. I'm just wondering whether his EASY may a little off and perhaps needs a bit of a tweak? May I see your latest EASY for a day..
E - when he ate
A - how long his activity was, eyes open to eyes closed
S - duration of nap, any sleep aids such as loveys, pacifier..any sleep training such as shush/pat PUPD...etc..

thanks hun :)
sarah
*Sarah*





Offline dancer1007

  • New & Learning The Ropes!
  • *
  • Showing Appreciation 0
  • Posts: 12
  • Location:
Re: Weaning 8.5 month old...please help, so lost
« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2011, 17:50:53 pm »
Up until the last two days it has looked like this

E: 7/730: nurse
solids at830
A: about 3 hours
S: 3 hours after waking for about an hour, sometimes 45 minutes, sometimes 1 hour 15
I would sometimes nurse down to sleep for this nap, or nurse for a minute or two till he calmed and then rock
I would try to stretch his next nursing to 3 hours after the last nursing, but often this was very hard
lunch 1.5 hours after nursing
S: after 3 hours-3 hours 15 after being awake
This nap would last longer, about 2 hours until roughly 3:30
He would nurse after 3 hours, this was a little easier to get to, although I once again would nurse down for this nap.
Dinner 530
nurse at 7
bed 71-715 Awake time usually a little over 4 hours

so awake times are 3 hours, 3 hours 15, and 4 hours

He would usually have some very brief awakenings early in the night, then starting at 11, I would nurse at every awakening, finally bringing him into bed at 330.  As you can see there is a lot of AP  We are working on fixing it, although I am an emotional wreck because of all the changes.  I am convinced that he is snacking all day and not getting enough milk, thus waking all night and needs comfort to go back down.  We are now attempting this new schedule and it has been going okay, still needs work

Awake between 6-7
E: nurse 7 am or bottle (roughly 4.5 oz with bottle)
solids 830
s after 3 hours
E 11 (after 4 hours) nurse or bottle usually about 5 oz if that
lunch 1230
S after 3-3.5 hours
E after 4 hours (usually about 4 oz)
dinner 530
bottle or nurse at 7
sleep for night
bottle at 11 dreamfeed
and then trying to just rock him down until after 4

Concerns I have:  If I do continue to nurse instead of weaning to bottle...since I was having him snack all day, will my supply meet his demand for him to get enough milk if he is going 4 hours without nursing?
I am sure he will be starving at night, am I doing the wrong thing?
Is it okay he is only taking 4-5 oz at a feeding?

Offline Smurfette

  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 63
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 2054
  • Location: Wpg, MB, Canada
Re: Weaning 8.5 month old...please help, so lost
« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2011, 20:47:33 pm »
Is it okay he is only taking 4-5 oz at a feeding?

My DD only ever took about this much maybe an ounce more, not too sure as most times she was BF. But she is a chubby little monkey, so I wouldn't worry. Your LO will take what he wants to take. :)

Offline Jiinx

  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 148
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 5969
  • Location: Toronto, ON
Re: Weaning 8.5 month old...please help, so lost
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2011, 02:24:48 am »
Your body adjusts to what your baby needs, hun.

In terms of an EASY perspective, your first A can do with some more time. This is evident after a 3 hour A time followed by his first nap of 45 minutes to an hour.

The feeding to sleep is probably something you want to discontinue as it'll be hard to continue this in a few months time :-*

*Sarah*