IN DESPAIR - We have NW again!

[Ima shel Alon]

DS is almost 7m old and has been STTN since he was 5m old. During the period he STTN he used to have maybe the occasion NW once a week and of course we didn't mind it.
Since a couple of weeks ago the NW started again, most nights is one NW that can be as long as 2h.
In the past we used pat/shh, but the shh was disturbing him so we stopped it about a month ago. Now to settle him we put a hand on his back and that settles. He doesn't scream or cry badly when he wakes up, just cries a bit, then we come and put a hand on him and he settles. We even manage to take our hand off him when he settles, but as soon as we try to leave the room it all starts again.

Whenever we got bad naps days or NW in the past I knew what the reason for them, but this time I am clueless. I thought at first that the naps are the reason, because lately the PM nap started to be shorter, but I looked at his EASY diary and even in the days we got good naps we get NW.
I am seriously at a lose here and this NW are killing me.

Our EASY:

6:30 Wake up
9:30 S
11:00 Wake up
14:10 S
15:30 Wake up (This is the PM nap I was talking about)
18:30 Bath
Asleep by 19:15

To tell you the truth, his E is all over, I am far from being strict about it. He eats around 900ml a day and take solids three times a day (I started 2 days ago to give the third meal, till then he had only twice a day).

I do have a few thoughts now that I am writing it, but I am not sure at all that I am at the right direction. I am so insecure about it.
*His last A time of the day is pretty long, but I don't know how to shorten it.
*If he only got twice a day solids till now and only a little bit (an ice cube size of mashed fruit or veg), maybe it was too little for him? He is quite a big fella.
*He is rolling quite a lot during the day but about a week and a half ago he started lifting himself on his knees and stretching his hands up, kind of a crawling position. This is a development and I know it often wakes them up at night, but would it take that long to settle again?

I really hope somebody can help me, I am clueless.
Thank you.

[bug_blues70]

hey Ima!! TBH, it sounds UT to me. And maybe hunger is part of it, esp if he's big and starting to move more. But I'd be willing to bet he just needs a bit more atime during the day, especially since you say when he has good naps, he has more NW.

This is what I would try first: add 15 minutes to his 2nd atime so that he sleeps longer and that way you can have a shorter atime before bed... He may also be ready for 15 minutes more for his first atime too once he gets adjusted to the longer 2nd atime. and btw, i realize his second a is already 10 minutes longer... i think it's pretty normal to have longer atimes in the pm, and I don't think that 20-25 min is too much.

[Khalam's Mama]

My thoughts would be UT too. I agree with pp. What do you think?

[*jazzberry*]

I don't *think* it sounds food related but DD takes about 28oz formula and 3 BIG meals a day. And she is not a big girl. So maybe he needs more food too..??

[Ima shel Alon]

Do you mean he has NW because he is UT?
I didn't even think about it, it doesn't make much sense to me but I'll take your word on it. I know that OT can cause NW, but UT?
I am more than willing to try anything, so I am going to stretch the two A times in the next few days and I will see where it brings me.

Jackie, what do you mean by three big meals? DS is taking around 30oz a day.
Thanks ladies, that keeps me hopeful.

[Khalam's Mama]

UT can definitely cause NW. If they don't get anough A time in the day/too much sleep in the day then they can wake at night looking for it.

My DS1 was barely taking a lick of food at that age even though he was on 92nd centile.

[*jazzberry*]

DD has 28oz formula plus 3 x 5oz solids. So I guess around 43oz in total. Those are big meals to me as my boys hardly ate anything.. I think she weighs around 13-14lbs so she's only a tiddler.

[bug_blues70]

from what I hear, it sounds like the littler babies eat the most... my two are/were huge but neither one likes to eat!

How did the extra atime go?

[clairebear79]

I agree with PP's the NW sound UT to me.  If he was waking crying in the early part of the night or EWing I'd think OT, but long NW's suggest he needs an A time increase.  I saw your other thread & looking at the naps you are getting (short) this also is indicative of UT.

As for food - when I first started weaning at 5 months DS had 1 ice cube of puree - we quickly increased this to 2 & then 3.  So I would say he's maybe not having *quite* enough.  Do you offer it until he is full?

One other thing that stood out to me is this:

He doesn't scream or cry badly when he wakes up, just cries a bit, then we come and put a hand on him and he settles. We even manage to take our hand off him when he settles, but as soon as we try to leave the room it all starts again.

When he wakes in the night, if he has a little cry (but not his 'I need you' cry, have you tried just leaving him to see if he'll settle back to sleep rather than going in to him?  Just might be worth a try - I found as DS got older (he is touchy too) that he would be more distracted by my being there & get more worked up than if I just leave him too it.  Obviously I don't leave him to CIO, but a little bit of a chatter & a fuss as he settles is absolutely fine IMO.

HTH.x

[bug_blues70]

I found as DS got older (he is touchy too) that he would be more distracted by my being there & get more worked up than if I just leave him too it.  Obviously I don't leave him to CIO, but a little bit of a chatter & a fuss as he settles is absolutely fine IMO.

same here. i have been going to Milo waaaay too much and it just keeps him up. the past few nights i've started mostly just leaving him and he seems to be getting better each night (thank god!!!)

[Ima shel Alon]

Ok, so the last two days we were out as our family is visiting and Alon only got his AM nap. He didn't have a proper PM nap so was pretty tired going to bed and the last two night STTN!!! Even if it's a once off (or twice I am happy as I got some sleep. But anyway, that made me think that you were all right and that he was just UT. Today we increased his first A time from 2:50 to 3:05 and got a 1:50 nap out of him which is great. But then we were out again and he only slept 35min in the afternoon. Tonight all the guests are leaving so I can try tomorrow to increase the second A time and see what happens.
I also increased his solids and now as you say Claire I offer till he doesn't want anymore and the amount that he eats seems reasonable to me, I don't feel he eats too much all of a sudden iykwim.

When he starts crying at night it a "come here mommy" cry straight away and then when I put my hand on him he is calm again (prop?), I don't go in if it's just a little cry (learned my lesson there
Thanks again ladies, will keep you posted.

[clairebear79]

Glad you got such a great nap this morning!  Hope tomorrow goes well too. 

[bug_blues70]

ima - glad you got good results and some sleep!! lots of times babies can do long stretches like that with no problems, especially if they have been UT, but if it happens more than once or twice in too short a time span, they can get OT pretty quick. Good luck on the naps once the guests leave!!

[Ima shel Alon]

We had a 21:45 NW which was obviously OT and then an EW at 5:30, but I really held myself, didn't go in and he fell asleep again.

So everyone are gone and I started the day all ready to tackle this and was so confident I could do it.
So what did we get so far?
First A time was 3:05 same as yesterday and I got an UT nap of 1.15h.
Second A time was 3:30h and I got a 45min nap which only god knows if it's UT or OT. He woke up happy, is that UT?
My confidence just went out the window...

[bug_blues70]

hugs Ima! it takes a LOT of trial and error, and it will be the same til they drop naps - they are always changing!!!

roll with it for today and try to make small corrections tomorrow - you'll get there!!