Is a 12 hour night realistic?

[melloyello]

I'm not sure if I even have a problem here, so I think I just may need some reassurrance that my LO is doing ok!

DS is 7.5 months and started STTN from the DF a little over a month ago... this was a long time coming and we were thrilled not to be getting up in the night anymore!

He also started refusing the CN around this time and after about a month of limbo (some days CN, some days not) we finally seem to have dropped it for good. Even on days when he hasn't napped as well, he will usually refuse it unless we do some serious APing and even then it can take him up to an hour to finally settle and then it's too close to bedtime! On these days we usually go for an earlier BT.

So right now he is generally doing two naps of 1.5 hrs (sometimes a bit longer, up to 2 hours) and then asleep for the night around 7:15, DF at 10:30.

The issue is his wakeup time which is around 6am, 6:15 at the latest. This is almost an 11 hour night and so I don't think it's technically an EW, but I guess I have it in my head that he should be sleeping 12 hours at night! He used to sleep until 7-7:30am, but this was when he was waking up for a feed around 3am and would often be up for almost an hour.

When he wakes up he will babble for a few minutes and then within a few minutes he is quite upset, he will scream until I feed him, even when I’m changing his diaper etc. It’s like he’s just so famished! He will then take a good breastfeed and a full breakfast of solids an hour later.  I don’t know how I will ever drop the DF if he is this hungry in the morning!

The last week we have had a couple of earlier wakings, one at 5:30 and then this morning 5:50, which makes me nervous. Hopefully this doesn’t continue!

Here is our current EASY:

6 Wake
6:15 E
7:30 Solids
9-10:30/10:45 S (we have just started stretching this A out to 3 hrs)
10:45 E
12 Solids
1:30-3/3:15 S (we still get some short naps here at times but can usually extend)
3:15 E
5 Solids
6:15 Bath
6:30 E, then bedtime routine
7 BT
10:30 DF

His last A is long but he refuses the CN and we’ve tried earlier BT and he just wakes earlier in the am.

So I guess my question is: is 10.5-11 hours ok for this age (almost 8 months) or do the majority of LOs do the coveted 12 hour night? Should I be trying to get him to sleep longer in the am, or should I just accept that this is his wakeup time?

[~Emma~]

 NOt all bubs do a 12 hour night hon, you are not alone. DD will a couple of times a week but for the most part its 11 hours atm.

 You are in a bit of a limbo hon with CN dropping and it perfectly normal to have a wee bit of up and down until those 2 solid naps are established and the A before bed is cut back a bit or his A is extended enough to cope with it. Whichever comes first (does that even make sense?!!).

 I wouldn't worry about the DF right now, maybe rethink in another month when solids are well on the go. If he's genuinally hungry in the AM anyways no amount of routine tweak will make him wake later if this is the case kwim?

 And you are right, the 12 hour night is coveted!  Personally for the moment I would take it right now for what it is.

[melloyello]

Thank you! I know you're probably right, but I guess we always want what we don't have!

I do worry about that last A before bed being so long though! Like I said, he will often outright refuse the CN or it takes so long to settle him that BT ends up being too late. We've tried earlier BT as well and it just made him wake earlier! As a result I've been really trying to push out his A times during the day but worry I may be going too fast. Yesterday morning he did 3 hrs A and was fine but today we did the same and he just woke after 30 min (OT I'm assuming) although I was able to resettle.

So tricky!

[~Emma~]

 It IS tricky hon. I have struggled with both of mine to extend A's at this time.

 I now its really hard when they wake earlier after being put down earlier but perhaps a run of 2 or 3 early nights might, just might give him the opportunity to catch up on lost zzzzzz's? Its a hard decision to make though because the early mornings are hard, hard work. I know this!  (DS was chronic, it nearly killed me!)

 In another week or 2 hon his A will be stretched that wee bit more tohugh and the CN will be a thing of the past.

[clairebear79]

Totally agree with Emma's advice.  My DS just turned 1YO & we have only had ONE 12 hour night & that was a week or so ago.  From about 7-11 months we were getting 10.5-11hrs average (& sometimes less as he too was a chronic EWer).  Now he is doing around 11-11.5 as we head nearer to dropping to 1 nap.  You'll probably find that the longer nights come when you get to that stage too.

One other thing - if his WU regularly starts to creep before 6am, then you might need a little routine tweak.  As tough as it sounds - I say this to everyone now - keep that AM nap after 9am DO NOT let it go earlier unless dealing with severe OT catch up - or you will just encourage the EW.

[melloyello]

Thanks for the advice Emma and Claire!

We've been working to keep the AM nap at 9am, although it is tough as he has always preferred a shorter morning A time and was previously doing 2.5 hrs (now it's usually 3 hrs). With the early starts though it's also necessary to keep us from having a super long A time before bed or having to resort back to the CN, so we'll keep at it!

In your experience, is it also helpful to cap this morning nap at say 1.5 hrs? If I let him he would probably sleep 2 hrs at least for his AM nap. We're still struggling sometimes with getting a longer PM nap, but he usually (knock on wood!) does 1.5 hrs now. Would love if he could reverse the AM and PM naps!

Any other routine tweaks that might be helpful in regards to EW?

[melloyello]

Oh, and one other question I had - is there any value in trying to stall him from eating when he wakes at 6? Am I encouraging him to wake if I feed him right away? He really is quite upset until he eats and he always used to wake happy when he still had a NF, and also wakes happy from naps for the most part.

[clairebear79]

Am I encouraging him to wake if I feed him right away?

I always had this worry too, but in my experience (6 months of EW) I don't think my LO woke b/c he was anticipating his breakfast, although I do think once they ARE awake in the early hours, they can start to feel hungry pretty quickly b/c its been a long time since they last ate & they only have small tummies.

We always set 6am as the earliest at which we would get up. If he woke earlier we'd wait until 6 & then feed him immediately  It has only been since our EW have (touch wood) gradually improved in the last month that we have nudged his feed later towards 7am.  Until then he always ate at 6-6.15am. 

Other folks may have different ideas, but if your LO is really upset til he eats then it sounds like he is definitely hungry so personally I wouldn't stall him. 

As for capping the AM nap at 1.5hrs - is that what you are currently doing, since you say 'if I let him he'd probably sleep 2hrs'?  I think if you allow a 2hr AM nap & then you struggle to lengthen the PM nap then it may be a sensible idea.  And also if you get EW then a too long & too early AM nap can reinforce the EW cycle.  But if you are getting a decent PM naps of 1.5hrs then I wouldn't interfere.  If possible its best to let them wake naturally - as at least that way they are fully rested IYSWIM?

x

[~Emma~]

 If its genuine hunger then I wouldn't hold back on the feed hon. If he's awake because of hunger then oyu may as well just feed kwim?

 I always capped the AM nap to no more than 1.5h, she wouldn't go down for PM otherwise. It depends on what works best for oyur bub I suppose but we started capping naps fairly early around here. 

[susaninlondon]

Emma,
thinking, once my teething is done here and we get to first nap after 9am that I may have to start capping the am nap. It freaks me out however as its my LO (8 months) better nap but know that we want to eventually get to the pm nap been the long one so should start there.
Can you post how you went about capping this first nap? did you land up sometimes getting a short am nap then a 40 min pm nap? (thats whats happened here the 2/3 days I gave it a go) then we had a mess by BT as 3rd nap has been dropped.
Guidance appreciated 

[~Emma~]

 Ugh Susan yes, plenty of bust PM's after cut AMs. We just plug away though, its all about getting that middle A right.

 Same for us, AM also best nap guaranteed, she'd sleep well over 2 hours if I let her. I had to cap to 1.5 at 5 months old and then down from there. She now at 30mins or 45 if really tired for AM nap and PM nap has settled down now too. A bad PM nap is 1 hour 15. (please dont jinx me!)

[Gooders]

Wow I was reading that thinking I had written it. We are on the cusp of dropping the CN (done our first 3hr A time today) and our mornings seem to be getting earlier and earlier and if we have a CN our BT is getting later. On average DS is doing 10.5hr now. I long for the 12/13hrs he used to do!