1 yr old with multiple nw...help

[lily528]

My dd wakes 2x a night. Usually at 11:30 and 5. Right now I nurse for about 10 mins both times and she goes right back to sleep. But I really want to stop this. Any ideas on how to stop the night feeds and get her sttn?

[sianie]

Hi there...

It would be useful if you could post her whole routine so we can see what's going on. 

Have you always nursed her to sleep? Is she able to fall asleep independently? To wean the feeding then you have a couple of options; 1/ gradually reduce the amount of time you are feeding her for or 2/ drop the feed & go cold turkey & use either GW (Gradual withdrawal) or WI/WO (walk in /walk out) to help her to learn to fall asleep by herself (see link below FYI).

http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=80750.0

I assume that se eats & drinks well during the day & that the NW's are habitual rather than genuine hunger?

[lily528]

hi there...

here is our usual routine...

7 am wake up BF
8 am Breakfast
snack
10:15 am nap (usually 1 hr 15 mins :/)
12 pm bottle of soy milk
12:30 pm lunch
2:30 pm nap (30 mins)
snack
4:30-5 pm dinner/dessert
5:45 pm bath
6:15 pm BF and bed (I nurse her but 9 times out of 10 she doesn't fall aseep and is put in her crib awake and settles herself to sleep within a few mins)
6:30 pm asleep
11:30 pm nw (takes a full bf session about 10 mins and back in crib asleep or awake)
4:30-5 am nw (SAA)


both times at night she will take a full 10 min feed and go back in her crib to sleep...most times she is awake and will settle herself...if I try to do ANYTHING but bf her at these wakings she flips out...its the only thing to calm her enough to be willing to go back to sleep :/  the fact that she takes a full feed makes it odd that she may not be waking out of hunger..but i have no clue how she could possibly be hungry...she nurses 2x a day and takes a mid day bottle of soy...has 3 meals a day and 2-3 snacks...and she can eat trust me...this kid will sit and have 2 pancakes in the morning and still be looking for more...i can't imagine its hunger.

she is more than capable of settling herself to sleep..she does it for naps and BT it's just these wakings...her naps are not great at all...I'd love to rectify that issue as well...been trying to but I am not succeeding at all :/  stresses me out that she doesn't get the sleep she needs

last night she woke at 9:30 (3 1/2 hrs from BT after a 1 hr 10 min am nap and a 15 min pm nap! so guessing that was an OT nw)...i let her go a bit...which i don't usually do she wasn't screaming but crying a bit and standing up..within 2 mins she actually went back to sleep...she woke letting out a cry or two maybe 2-3 more times within that hour but settled herself and then sttn but woke early at 6 am.  (12 hr night though since she went to bed earlier i guess that created the earlier waking)  most nights when she wakes i am not so sure she'd settle like that so quickly...SHOULD I just leave her a bit even if she is crying a little?  I always feel bad :/  i don't think wiwo would work with her because she is very clingy to me and once she sees me that will be it...what do you think?  any advice is welcome...for both nw AND naps if you got it...i am open

[Khalam's Mama]

Hi Melissa.

When you mention help with naps, what is the issue you would like to solve? Do you want longer naps?

My 1st thoughts looking at the routine is her A times are quite short and that 1hr 15 nap looks UT then she is likely OT for the 2nd nap if waking at 30mins (or do you wake her?) and then OT at BT. Have you tried that 1st nap later?

With The BF the fact that they are at similar times says habit to me. Have you always BF at all NW? It may just be she has learned to take a full feed at night rather than she can't manage a full 12hrs without a feed IYKWIM?

If you don't think WIWO would be good for her would GW work do you think? Would she let you cuddle her or stroke her etc? It might be worth talking to her in the day about how she isn't going to get fed in the night if you decide to stop it. I used to tell DS the boobies were sleeping and later when he was older so they could make milk for tomorrow.

If she is only crying a bit (like a mantra cry) and not a full on "I need you cry" I would certainly leave her to see if she goes back to sleep. The worse thing I could do with DS was rush in as like you say once they see you it is over! If it escalates you could go in once.

If it helps I always fed at NW and did PD with DS at 9mo and thankfully only had to do it one night before he stopped waking for it.

[lily528]

With naps yes I need them to be longer. I know the A times are short. She yawns rubs her eyes at around 3 hrs A time. I HAVE tried to extend the A times. She is usually OT and fights me falls asleep but the naps have been even shorter. I only extended by 15 mins and still this happened. I don't know what to do.

Yes I have always bf for nw. I am not sure what gradual withdrawal is. I have to look at the link. She definitely wont let me just cuddle her. If I go in when she wakes I have to pick her up or she SCREAMS.  Then if I try to sshhh her or console her she will SCREAM. She only wants to nurse. Has always been this way. Its almost better to not go in at all then go in and not give her what she wants. She is very persistent and strong willed. :/

[sianie]

Hi...

I agree that her A-times are on the short side, it's quite common for LO's to show sleepy cues at around the time they usually nap even if they are able a bit longer A-time (their bodyclocks will automatically make them feel sleepy at a certain time). As with all routine changes it can take a few days for LO's to adjust to a change in A-times & I would stick it out for a few days to see what happens.

She's clearly in the 2:1 transition, which is always tricky....I would push the AM nap back to 10.30am (& stick to this time for a few days) cap it at 1.5hrs & then do PM nap at around 3.30/4pm for 30/45mins then BT for around 7pm.

I think going cold turkey is probably the best way to go with dropping the NF....no she isn't going to like it & there will be tears but if you are consistent & stick to your guns she should start being able to settle herself independently. Have a look at the link I sent you & let us know what would work better for your LO so we can help you to come up with a plan! 

[lily528]

So push the A time to 3.5 HRS? Why am I capping at 1.5 HRS?  Not that she even sleeps that long...most times it's 1 hr 15 mins. What if she doesn't sleep 1.5 HRS?  Do I still do the pm nap at 3:30 or after 3.5 HRS after wake up?  Then 3 hr A to BT?

[sianie]

That's just an example of a routine that you could aim for (see below link FYI).

http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=64158.msg476652#msg476652

She should be abel to handle around 3.5hrs A-time at her age, hence the suggestion to push the nap back a little. she might not sleep for 1.5hrs straight away as it may take a few days for her to adjust. If she doesn't sleep for that long then bring the PM nap earlier & do an early BT. I suggest capping the nap at 1.5hrs so that you can fit another nap into the day (this is part of the problem with 2:1). The shorter A-time to bed is because the PM nap is shorter.

Does this help?

[lily528]

I think so. Is there an avg day/night sleep for her age I could use as a guide on adjusting the A time ? 

[sianie]

These links might be useful:

http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=85137.0

http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=164031.0

[lily528]

Thank you sooo much. Its nice to have a guideline.

[lily528]

She usually sleeps 12-12.5 HRS at night with 1-2 very brief wakings. That list stated 11.5 HRS avg for her age. Could she be sleeping too long at night?  Could that be the issue with the short naps maybe?  Also could what I do with her A time affect her nap length?  Most times we just sit on the floor and play. Occassionally in the car for a portion of it. We don't go out much cause she constantly wants to either be held the whole time or put down to walk which she does fairly well with but hasn't totally mastered. She does not like her stroller. So most A times she walks around the house playing with whatever she can get her hands on. She never stops...into everything.

[sianie]

Don't forget that these are based on averages & some LO's will sleep less & some more than these amounts.

Her total daytime sleep is on the low side so that may be why her nights are longer but also NW's (even brief ones) can still have an impact on LO's sleep as it means they are not getting a total night of undisturbed sleep.

A-time activity could have an impact but again it depends on the LO.

[lily528]

I understand. Thank you   the links were a great help. As far as wiwo or gw I am honestly not sure either would work. She would freak out if I came in to her and then walk back out. There is no other consoling that works with her other than nursing. Definitely think her crying would escalate.  Pupd never worked for us for that same reason. As far as gw from what I read none of the reasons to use that method applies to her. I don't use any of those techniques to help her sleep. I don't ap her to sleep at all. Except nursing and even then she usually doesn't fall asleep. Would the nursing be what I gw by decreasing the amount of time I do it?

[sianie]

Would the nursing be what I gw by decreasing the amount of time I do it?

That's one way you could do it if you wanted to gradually reduce the amount of time she's fed rather than just dropping the feed.
If you just dropped the feed then when she wakes at night, wait to leave her to self-settle until her cry becomes more distressed then go in, put your hand on her back /PD or whatever you use tell her it's time to go back to sleep then sit in a chair/on the floor next to her cot (I tend to sit with my back to the cot....the idea is to keep interaction as limited & low key as possible), if she  continues to cry then you can repeat your sleepy phrase to her. this does help LO's to learn to self-settle as after a while she will realise that she's not getting anywhere & *should* settle herself back to sleep. As you are still in the room with her & she can see & hear you you are not leaving her to CIO. The first few nights will be hard but the key is to stick at it as every night should get a little easier.