Help with 2 year old, won't sleep alone anymore!

[First Time Mom]

Hi ladies!
I have huge issues with my darling Graydon at bedtime, he refused his crib and dh and I have somehow... let him in our bed  . Needless to say, he refuses to leave .
History... from birth he was a fabulous sleeper and napper, slept through from 6 months. He was bf and always put down awake for both naps and sleep. Fast forward to a week after his 2nd birthday and he started preschool. We had to ditch the paci ASAP for preschool. The first day I left him to nap there (week 3) he screamed for 30 min and they held him and walked him until he fell asleep. Done. That night he wanted me to walk him, so I did. I didn't know what else to do without the paci . I was used to bfing him and then putting him down awake and giving him his paci then just leaving the room. Within 2 days at preschool he stopped fussing for his paci and napped without a fuss. Home, well, that's a different story. He would cry, scream, want to bf very long at bedtime (comfort bfing- something he had never done before). We went from bfing 3 min to him wanting to stay on 10+ min. I finally would pop him off and take him to his crib but he would FREAK out screaming and refusing sleep. He did this until 10pm one night (finally passed out tired). Anyway, now I bf, take him to my bed, lay down with him, pretend to fall asleep, let him fall asleep, dh comes in, takes over, we let him go into a heavy sleep and then we do the transfer. He sometimes wakes around midnight and we have to go and get him, take him to our bed.
Not sure what went wrong? Paci removal? The fact that at preschool he sleeps in a cot and home it's a crib? SA? He never had SA before but I do find when I take him to the bed he spends first 15 min hugging me and kissing my face just glued to me. I've tried WIWO and he SCREAMS and cries so hard, I'm a sap and not one for tears so I cave easy. HELP, I want my good sleeper back and I want him sleeping in his crib!!

[sianie]

Hi there...

It sounds like there could be a few things going on that could be causing some of the issues; starting Pre-school is a big deal so it might well take him a while to adjust. How often is he at pre-school? How long is he napping for there?

It does also sound like the BF'ing has become a bit of a prop. I do wonder from what you've said that on top of these things could he be teething? A lot of the behaviour you describe sounds possibly teething/OT related. 2nd year molars (if he hasn't got them yet) can cause sleep issues.

Do you want to post his current routine so we can take a look?  

[First Time Mom]

Forgot about the teething, yes he is on/off teething, he used to chew his paci but now it's his fingers and on some days he drools buckets!

He is at preschool Mon-Fri, 9-3:30. He's only been doing these hours at the preschool and naps for about 2 weeks. For the first 2 weeks I did a gradual drop off, leaving him for only 2 hours, and waiting for almost an hour before I left so he wouldn't feel I deserted him. He's now doing great there- this morning he pointed to his friends, got a kiss from me, and ran to them. He is really well adjusted there and has no issue with falling asleep alone on his cot there (they don't use cribs as all the other kids are about 3 yrs old- they allow 3 two year olds and we were lucky to get him in as one of them). His nap is very consistent there- he always sleeps 1.5 hours.

Routine- wake around 6:30 (used to be 7 until a month ago), nap 12-1:30, bed 9:15 and asleep at 9:30 (if I let him lay in my bed). I've tried backing it up 10 min at a time to get to an earlier bedtime but he just plays and sings until 9:15, it's as if he knows how to tell time. Prior to preschool, he woke at 7, napped from 12-2, went to bed at 9:15 (in his crib, no problem).

Yes, bfing has totally become a prop now without the paci. He doesn't want to come off, I have to remove him.

I am tempted to give him the paci again! We had such a perfect routine back with the paci:( Could it be SA at 2? He just turned 2 mid August.

[sianie]

Hi...

Looking at his routine he has a very late BT. It has been proven that LO's do best with a BT between 7pm-8pm....so he's doing an 8hr A-time to BT which is really long! I think you need to move it much earlier & also do a longer wind-down as this will help him to calm down & get into the right state of mind for sleep (both my LO's need a longer wind-down on days they have been at nursery as it's very easy for them to get OT/OS from being there.

TBH, it doesn't really sound like SA to me, I think it's more likely him adjusting to a new routine & also having his paci taken away (which he's now substituted with BF'ing). If you want to get rid of the BF'ing then you can either go cold turkey & drop the feed or gradually feed him less & less, you will also need to do either GW or WI/WO to help to get him back on track & sleeping independently (see link below FYI):

http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=80750.0

The key to any sleep training is to be consistent & to stick at it, yes there will be tears & the first couple of nights will be tough but it's worth it to get him sleeping on his own again. If WI/WO didn't work for you before then you could try GW if you think he'd respond better to that?

[First Time Mom]

I've tried an earlier bedtime (back when he slept in his crib and we didn't have sleep issues). He would just wake at 5 or 5:30. We did this for 6 months and it killed me. He would wake happy as a lark and ready to play. I finally decided to adjust his bedtime, 10 min at a time, until he woke later at an appropriate time. I don't want to go back to 5am wake! I thought a toddler needed 10-13 hours of sleep in total? He's getting 10-.5-11 in total. Is it supposed to be 10-13 plus the nap? How do I make him sleep longer? He's a very happy toddler without OT issues (ie. doesn't cry or act up or show any signs of being OT). My daughter (at this age) had a bedtime of 8 at this age, but she used to wake at 7. How do I make his sleep longer?

I don't think the solution is to "get rid of the bfing" (I never said I wanted to stop bfing in my original post). The WHO recommends bfing up to 2 years and beyond with health advantages that extend well into adulthood. Graydon just turned 2, I know it might seem odd to some that I still bf him, but this should really be the norm. I know he is trying to turn it into a prop by wanting to bfing longer and I am aware of this but I stop when he stops drinking, so I think I am not letting him turn this into a prop.

My problem is that after his bath and windown he doesn't want to go into his crib- he freaks out. Do you think it's because he's sleeping in a "big boy bed" at preschool and has issue with the crib? I can't even get to the point of WIWA or GW! He clings and freaks out when I try to put him in. I even talk to him calmly about it prior, while we're reading, so he knows that it's bf, read 2 books, then bed. He says NO, he doesn't want to sleep in his bed, he wants my bed. Should I force him into the crib? It sounds like he's going to cry and scream so hard that he will throw up! I have never let him cry like this and he's never cried like this over anything, this is why I don't force it.

I think I've figured out his NWs, they seem to be over now. He had NWS when he was drooling more (teething) and one day he had a "time-out" in preschool for pulling a girls hair. He talked about it all night, demonstrating to us on himself how he tugged hair. When we talked about his time-out he cried. (I don't do time-out). I think he had nightmares over this, he seemed to dream lots, move, moan and wake this night.


 

[sianie]

I'm aware of BF'ing guidelines & wasn't suggesting you stop, just stopping him being fed to sleep at night which I thought you wanted help with (you did mention in an earlier post that it had become a prop)? If you are happy to carry on doing this then that's absolutely fine.

ATM he is only getting around 9hrs night sleep which is very low..... it could be that his behaviour of not wanting to go into his crib is more OT &/or teething related. Have you been giving meds before sleeps to see if this helps? If he is teething then generally A-times do shrink back as LO's tend to get more tired, so it could be that you are missing his sleep window & therefore he's getting OT by the time he goes down.

It's difficult to know whether this is to do with him sleeping in a cot at pre-school, I certainly wouldn't put him in a BBB just yet. I also wouldn't force him into the crib but if you do GW (which may work better for him) then as you are staying with him in the room then you are there to re-assure him.

I've attached a couple more links FYI: Most 2yrs old are sleeping around 11.5hrs at night & napping for around 1.5hrs during the day. Would you say your LO was low sleep needs? Did he transition early to 1 nap etc?

http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=80822.0

http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=85137.0

[First Time Mom]

After reading the bit about SA, my little guy is totally manipulating us!! He has us wrapped around his little finger and we give in to his every little wimper about going into our bed. I think it might be time to add a fluffy blanket and fuller pillow into his bed; he seems to love throwing his face down on our duvet, so lack of soft comfort in his crib might be an issue.

Good to know you don't recommend a BBB yet, I wasn't sure if we should try that so wanted to ask, but we won't.

I'm going to bite the bullet tonight... I'm going to try to push his bath/bed routine by 30 min tonight to see if I can. He does seem to be happy on his current sleep. Both him and my dd dropped naps early and wake super early on more sleep (I myself sleep 6 hours a night as a full sleep so maybe it's genetics?). But I want to see if it helps! I'm going to push the crib tonight and not give in. I'll even carry him around in his room to soothe him- anything but not walk out and into our room to our bed. I have to break him from wanting our bed. I ran into 2 friends this morning when dropping off the kiddies at school and one has her 3 year old in her bed and the other had a friend who had her 10 year old in her bed ! I don't want to end up like these parents, especially when I had such great success with both my kiddies as BW babies!

I guess I wonder how do I drop his prop (our bed) and keep from getting into another prop? I guess his paci was a prop for his sleep, and then he tried to make bfing a prop (it didn't actually become a prop because I didn't let him comfort bf or stay on past actual drinking), and if I carry him, pat or rub his back, or do whatever to soothe him I will prevent him from coming into our bed but I sound like I'm going the route of one prop to another, don't I?

[sianie]

If he is lower sleeps needs (which does sound like that could be the case) then a 'normal' amount if sleep would probably be around 10/10.5hrs at night, although it's always tricky with low sleep needs LO's to get the right balance between day & night sleep.

I think if you're going to bit the bullet then I would do your usual wind-down routine (but do it in his room) & then when he's calm put him down in his crib....if he's ok then leave the room, if he starts crying then wait & see if it's a mantra cry rather than a distressed cry before you go in. If his cry escalates/becomes more distressed the go in & use your voice to re-assure him, you can try PD if he's standing up or just put your hand on his back/tummy (this is what I do with my LO's) & say your sleepy phrase. It will probably be a tough night but try to stick with it as if you give in it will only teach him that if he cries for long enough then he gets what he wants.

Good luck! 

[First Time Mom]

God what a horrible night! I knew it was not going to be easy but I almost broke down crying myself, the only thing that stopped me was knowing that it would make ds more upset if I didn't stay calm.

We did his normal routine (earlier). Then I bf, read him 2 books and put him in his crib. He freaked out (which I expected) and would not let go of my neck. He stood like that with his arms around me and me hunched over into his crib for about 10 min.

Finally with soothing talk I convinced him to sit down for me to read another book. I read Goodnight Moon very sloooowly and in almost a whisper. He started to finally look tired and actually put his head back on the pillow. Whenever I stopped he sat up. So, I read Goodnight Moon from front to back and back to front maybe 15x? I think about 30 min went by. Then he sat up and said he wanted to go (to our room) so I gave him stickers and more stickers. He ran out of stickers (before he fell asleep) and called me back into the room, started crying so I went back in. He was now standing, crying. I hunched over his crib again, holding him under his arms so he wouldn't fall over throwing himself and get hurt. We did this for almost 30 min with him crying. Finally I pulled him out, got him to put his head on my shoulder but he still would not stop crying. He also kept asking to bf (he was going to try anything to stay out of the crib and make his way back to our room). I finally gave in at 10pm, sat down and bf him. He fell asleep on me. I peeled him off and put him in his crib.

What a mess. I kept him up crying to me for over an hour. I bf him as a new prop to soothe him (which we never do!). But, well, at least I got him into his crib while he was awake at the beginning of the night and  he didn't fall asleep in my bed... right?

Tell me it will get easier! At one point I was ready to yell downstairs for dh to grab his old paci but I didn't. I came close though. What should I do for the next night? More books until he falls asleep to me reading to him? I need to try something to get him to stay in his crib longer. I'm probably not the best person for this- dh should do this because he can't ask dh to bf when he gets desperate to escape the crib but I know dh would last 2 min and then take him to our room.

[sianie]

{{Hugs!}}....

It will be tough to start with but actually it sounds like you did make some progress by not taking him into your bed. Once he starts to understand that you're not going to give in then he should quickly learn that he's not getting anywhere & start to calm down quicker each night. Don't forget he's crying because he wants something (to go to your bed or BF) not because he's in pain/ill etc.

I think you need to limit the amount of times that you read a book to him otherwise he will start to expect to be read to sleep......what I do with my LO's is do their wind-down in their room, limit the amount of stories, put into bed when they are calm & sleepy....I leave if they are calm, if they start crying then I go back into the room (if it's a distressed cry) & use my voice to re-assure but I avoid taking them out of the cot unless necessary....I either sit in a chair next to their cot or on the floor with my back to them (the idea is to limit the amount of interaction so that they don't get OS & learn to self settle) & use my voice to calm & re-assure them.  Hopefully tonight will be easier than last night so stick with it!  

[First Time Mom]

Thanks for the support, in real need of it over here!

Last night didn't go well later on... he woke crying mama mama mama mama at 2:30am. It wasn't a shrill cry or anything but I do go to him quickly because I worry he's going to throw himself out of the crib or get into a hysterical cry if I don't go. I couldn't calm him, he tried climbing up my arms so I pulled him out of crib. He wanted to nurse and I said no, I couldn't calm him so... back to my bed we went . He slept until 6:30 but I couldn't sleep much. When he's in our bed he glues himself to me-has to press his face up to my face, his arm strangled around my neck for dear life, and he sleeps like this .

Will try again tonight. I'm going to the dollar store to load up on cheap, easy to peel stickers first. At this point, it's ANYTHING to distract him, even if it is another prop, so that I can remove myself from him and get him to stay in his crib.

[sianie]

Is 2.30am a usual time for him to wake? Just trying to understand if this was a habitual NW rather than OT.

[First Time Mom]

No, he never had any NWS prior to his birthday and starting preschool, getting rid of the paci. He was a perfect sleeper and I always put him down wide awake and walked away. He's been having nws on and off for the past 3 weeks or so. For one of the weeks he had a cold and was stuffed up so I think that's related. There is no consistency with the time of night, so no pattern.

I never thought of NWs relating to being OT, but it makes sense because he kept himself up until 10pm with our crib exercise last night. Should I do the night routine earlier tonight to make up for it? Does OT carry on from day to day? Never dealt with OT before.

[sianie]

OT can build up over time, especially as he's having short nights. I know you mentioned he's teething which does tend to go hand in hand with OT. Have you tried doing a meds dream feed in the early hours? It has worked really well for my LO's when they are teething & helps with the NW's/EW's we tend to get.

I would definitely do an earlier BT tonight, especially as you know it will probably take a while to get him to sleep. Good luck!

[First Time Mom]

What's a "med dream feed"?

I didn't bother with anything last night because the preschool told me he feel asleep at the lunch table 10 min before nap time! I figured with his bad night the night prior I wanted him to have a good sleep without a struggle over the crib tonight. Needless to say he wanted to go sleep in my bed so I didn't fight it, he fell asleep in 10 min so I transfered him after to his crib.

He had one NW at 11:30 last night. Dh and I were both still up so dh went to him and he started screaming for me. I went to him and instead of picking him up I started rubbing his back. He went down, face down, into his pillow and went right back to sleep!!

He woke at 6:30, so this is good. All night in his crib! I figure he's somewhat back to his "normal" sleep times, at least caught up from 2 nights ago when he fell asleep after 10pm due to the crib struggle) so I'll put him down earlier and try again tonight.