9.5 mo terrible night sleep. Is this 2-1 already? Please help tweak routine.

[shresmummy]

Hi my ds is 9.5 months old. He has never been the best sleeper, but this past 2 weeks our nights are just a joke. And our pm nap is always a messy short one and each day I think we are ending up in an ut/ot loop which I can't seem to get out of.

Can someone please help me fix this? I am Sooooooo exhausted and frustrated.

Roughly, here is our easy from the past week or so.

Wake 6 am
E - bf at 6 am solids at 7:30
A 6-9 (3 hrs)
S 9-10:10 (sometimes longer till 10:20)

E bf upon waking. Lunch at 12ish
A 10:15ish- 1:15/1:45 ( I have tried a range of A times from 3-3h30min. Nothing works!)
S 1:30-2:05 (roughly ranges from 30-40 min and he wakes anywhere between 2-2:15

E bf upon waking. Dinner at 4:15ish. Bottle of ebm before bed around 6 ish
A 2/2:15-6
S this is where my issues begin!

He always wakes 35-45 mins after going to bed. Then sometimes again in 10 mins afters settling. Sometimes not. Ten he sleeps for another 1 -1.5 hrs. Then usually I feed him around 10pm and he has a full bottle of formula. Then he again wakes around 1:30/2 and I have tried settling without a feed but he cries the house down and protests and I am scared of waking dd so I give in. Then newsies again around 5 ish and I bring him in with me and feed and cuddle till 6. Or when he decides to wake.

Lately after falling asleep he has been waking at 20 mins. Ot I think? But then when I settle him he sleeps longer. Te other night he slept till his 10 feed. Also even at 6 when I take him to bed he used to settle immediately, now he is looking all around and takes longer.

Is this the start of the 2-1 shenanigans? Or is something else going on? Developmentally nothing unusual. He learned to stand a month ago, but that hasn't really affected him in the cot. It's not like he wakes up standing and crying. Regarding teeth he doesn't even have 1 yet!! So that's anybody's guess.

If this is the 2-1 how should it tweak his routine? I would like to go the short am long pm nap route due to my dd's school run. I can't let him am nap past 10:45 am. And I like the short am idea cos we can get out and about. And I can try and concede their pm naps around 1:30 ish.

I don't yet have an issue getting him down for the am nap. He still goes with relative ease at 3 hr A time after waking although lately he hasn't rubbed his eyes at 3 hrs.

Doi need to increase the am A time? Cut the am nap? Nothing i do seems to help with getting a good pm nap. I am so lost now. Please can someone help me! 

[shresmummy]

Today was a disaster! And last night he decided to chat a bit at 3 am, then woke at 6 am.

Wake 6 am
Nap - he went down at 9 but he wasn't showing any tired signs. But then woke in 10 mins and I managed to put him back to sleep but he woke by 9:50.

Then for the pm nap I tried putting him down at the first tired signs around 3 hrs A time so around 12:50. He settled by 1 but woke at 1:40 chatty and refused to resettle. I think it was an ut nap??

I tried to ap a cn around 4:30 but e refused. So he ended up with a monster A time tilli did 6 pm bedtime.

Nws - 6:40, took till 6:55 to resettle. Was chatting but also crying??!! So ar hasn't woken yet. It's 7:50.

What am I doing wrong!? Please can someone advice me?

[annette.xx]

Hey Priya

its hellish isnt it - and definately a need for more A time - but not only that the A time has to be spread just right!

its start of 2;1 so they are needing 2 naps but their bodies start needing longer A before bed -

as you know im also doing short am nap long pm and am finding that with a 3hr first A time that first nap needs to be capped at no more than 45 mins (im thinking he may very soon want 30 mins -eeek!!)...

if I dont cap the nap at 45 mins what happens is that the next A needs to be long at least 3hrs 30/45mins to get a decent pm nap (although if first nap goes over 1hr then pm nap is bust so I would never ever allow a minute over 1 hour!!!)...then with that A time being long it then needs a decent nap to avoid OT which then in turn also needs a really long A to bed of at least 3hrs 45/4hrs which if you add up all the A times is 3+3.5+4 which is 10.5hrs minimum A time which can leave him a touch OT (though is still workable but a long day!)

with the 45 min nap it means I can do a 3hr/3hr 15 next A time then get a 2hour pm nap then that allows me to do a 4 hr last A time (which he quite clearly needs!!) - on days it works out like this the nights are much better...though today he wasnt tired enough for pm nap after 3hr 15 A time and I struggled to get him down which makes me think he will soon need 30 mins am nap

so in essense if you want to keep the 3hr first A time you must cut that first nap and be strict on it (almost too the minute!!! )

the other option of course is to lengthen the A time slightly maybe 3hr 15/30 then allow an hour then next A time would be 3hrs 30 then next nap 1 hour again then 3hrs 30 last A time - this depends on whether your DS would still go down for bed after 3hrs 30 A time!!

or the long am option (which isnt really workable for you but I will throw it out there!!) you would be at about 3hrs 45 first A then long 1.5/2 hour nap then 3hrs 30 then pm catnap of 30/45 mins then last A time of 3hrs to bed ...

I am noticing the following with my DS;

first A time is better to keep short as he will accept it better this way than short As later...

last A time needs to be at least 4hrs if last nap was anything over 1 hr...

he sleeps best at night when total A time in day is 10 hrs 15 - he is a strange one cos even 10 mins less he is awake more at night...actually more is better than less - if he is OT in a day he does better than not having enough A!!

my second A time needs to be really active - if I run errands with him in buggy and he isnt burning energy he isnt tired enough for pm nap!

anyhow - enough from me!! ..I do go on....

im going to cut am nap to 30 mins at 10 months and try and keep it at that until 12 months then go to 20 mins until 14 months when I will do as I did with DD and cold turkey to one set nap!!

this age is the trickiest for me so far!

Annette.xx

[shresmummy]

Hey Annette, thanks heaps for the really great information! I really appreciate it. Last night was horrendous prob because he was soooo ot.

But today he woke at 6
Nap 9-10:25
Nap 1:50-3!!!

Thank heavens for that! I think he was making up for it so I didn't limit am nap today.but bt was weird.took him in at 6:40 but he didn't settle immediately. Took till 7:10!! Then had 2 nw after 40 min each. But then slept till 10:30 and fed.

[annette.xx]

its so hard getting it right isnt it?!!

a word of caution though - you will carry on with this UT causing OT loop unless you either up the am A time or cap the am nap - its really hard to have to wake them but it really does stabilise things - obviously if you dont want to wake him early into a nap then dont and just stretch out that first A time slowly and you can maybe have 2 hour long naps or something?

what always happens is that you get bad naps and weird stuff happening as a sign that change is needed (more A time) but then the nights get OT wakings cos the naps were too short or UT wakings cos not enough A at the end of day then the next day naps could be great with the old timings cos they have built up the OT from all those NW - then of course they catch up and then you start the loop again...and it can go on and on like this!!!...

at 9 months with DD I was on a 30 min am nap already - then when she turned 10.5 months I went back to 45 min am nap - then 11 months back to 30 mins then eventually 20 mins until she was 14 months!

Annette.xx

[shresmummy]

Hey Annette, hope you are having a good weekend! I have a few interesting things to tell you from the past two days. Sorryi couldnt reply yesterday, dd is sick!

Here's our routine from yesterday and today,

Thursday
Wake 6:30
Nap 9:30-10:20 (woke on his own. Was a bit difficult to get him down)
Nap 1:25-2:10 then I resettled and he slept from 2:15-2:50
Bedtime took him in at 6:30, settled by 6:40 but woke at 7:10, 7:20 then slept till 9:50 fed, then usual nw at 1:30, 4 ...can't remember if I fed or not!! Woke at 6:10

Friday
Wake 6:10
Nap 9:10-9:20 (woke having done poo!! Once again was difficult to put down initially.. Then after cleaning he was all hyped up he scremed and protested and only settled around 10 then slept till 10:45 woke on his own happy.
Nap 1:35-3!!!! Yay!
Bedtime took him in at 6:35 but only slept finally by 6:50/7. But he was rubbing his face off! Woke at 7:40, but then slept no nws till 10:50!!! Fed and have just put him back down.

What do you reckon? The 45 min am nap seems to have helped things isnt it? But it's getting harder to put him down for a nap at 3 hrs A time in the am nowadays! And n thurs, he woke after 45 mins into the pm nap though. But I did manage to resettle him. Do you think he might need longer than 3 hrs for the 2 nd A time after a 45 min am nap?

Or like today, when he in essence went down for the am nap after a longer A time but still had 45 mins. But then had a good pm nap after 2hr50 min second A time. And an even better night.

Perhaps I should try a longer A time, then 45 min am nap, then 3 hr A time before pm nap? And I'm still struggling with getting the A time to bed right. He always seems to wake up after 30-45 min no matter what! Maybe it's developmental?

I'm so sorry for the million questions! I did the long am nap with dd and hence am totally unsure of what I'm doing this time around with the short am nap! And with ds bing such a terrible night sleeper!

Thanks heaps for all your help!!

[shresmummy]

Aaaurgggh! As if I didn't have enough problems, he has got a cold now. We had a rough weekend, but I think he's mostly over it now. But things are just so hard at the moment.

I let him sleep the past few days, because of the old, but it backfired big time even though h was sick! He refused his pm nap!! After sleeping for 1h40 mins for am nap.

Then he had a 3 am cot party, and nights are just all over the place.

I have had enough I am going to wean the 2 am nf cold turkey from tomorrow.. He s 10 months old. He is fussing for his bf during the day and I think e has to drop a feed, but I'm going to make it the nf first.

I'm sure that will impact on his A times during the day a bit because his nights are going to be bit rough.

Any advice? Still stck to 3 hr A time then 45 min am nap. Then what A time should I aim for?

[shresmummy]

I am really not sure what the deal with these nws is anymore. I havetried all sorts of combinations of A times and naps. But every night when he goes to bed he settles perfectly, but then wakes up 30-45 mins after. Then he has very fitful sleep for about 30 mins afterwards where he jolts and wakes up every 5 or 10 mibs. But then mostly sleess ok till his feed.

Today was a great day napwse but still he's up 30 mis after going o bed.
Wake 6:10
Nap 9:15-10
Nap 1:10:2:35
Bedtime asleep by 6:40

Now he's woken at 7:15 and I'm resettling him.

Is this something he just has to outgrow? Even f e settles independently at bt this still happens! It is driving me crazy.

Can someone plead help?

[shresmummy]

Thanks Jane. The trouble I face is that evenif I take him in earlier this happen. I  have taken him in at 6 even n this happens, 6:30 same thing. With 6 pm which would be around 3.5 hr A time he is ut and keeps looking around and not settling either. 

[annette.xx]

Hey Priya

so sorry ive been away so long - Tobias pulled the laptop lead and smash on the floor - only just received our new laptop so finally online again!!

yep same horribleness here too...the only thing that made a difference last few days is cutting the am nap to just 30 mins  then 3hrs A time then 1hr 30 nap then 4hrs till bed - seems like he does best now with just 10 hrs A time in the day...this is driving me nuts though - cant wait till one nap!!!!

I had to do 45 min am nap today cos MIL has him once a week for me to have a driving lesson and she never ever wakes him at any less than 45 mins (she doesnt beleive in waking a sleeping baby!) so now im going to have to really cut back the pm nap to 1hr 15 to try and keep A time at 10 hrs so I can get away with a 3hr 45 last A time...

it absolutely sucks at the mo - I swear its harder second time round cos we are sooo tired running around after 2...

I think I will be taken by the men in white coats anyday soon ....

...youve probably guessed that no laptop for me = nervous breakdown!! I need BW!!!!

Annette.xx

[katiepierce]

Hi girls!

Can I join you in the 9.5 month LOs going crazy phase that seems to be going around?!

I've been a tad stupid and buried my head in the sand that Henrys naps need chopping and now we're waking up in the 5 o'clocks - not fun. Should have started cutting one of them when I realised he was shortening his nights not his naps but i didnt cos I was too scared of overtiredness. But now we have short nights, 5am wakeups, 2 x 1.5 naps still and he's overtired anyway!! Grrrr.

Our EASY looks like this

5-6 - wake
7 - out of cot
9.30 - nap 1 for 1.5 (refuse to put him down before this!)
2.30 - nap 2 for 1.5
7.30 - asleep

Tomorrow my plan is to cut AM nap in half....eek! Will let you know how it goes.

How are you both getting on?

Katie. X

[annette.xx]

Hi there

yeah I say go with chopping that nap in half - im guessing you may be advised against such drastic cuts but in my experience (or lack of!!) I just cold turkey it when I know its whats needed and they soon adapt and it seems to nip the madness in the bud alot sooner!! So go for it...

after the 45 min nap do a 3hr 15 A time then pm nap you want to try and keep to the 1.5hr nap length any more and i find it affects night sleep....

then last A time will be 3hrs 45ish

I really hope u can get through the 5am wakeups cos they are hell - I am very naughty and I AP and feed to sleep at first sign of EW then if i get 2 EW in a row i know its time to adjust things!

Annette.xx

[shresmummy]

Hey Annette! I was wondering where you were, thought you were on holidays. I would be a mess without bw too!! And Katie welcome to the fun!!

We have ben having a couple f horrible weeks until he got sick last week. Then he was napping cos his night sleep was so bad due to the blocked nose. And I let him.

Yesterday we had a great day. 3 hr then 1h10 min nap, then 3 hr and same nap, then 3h55 min and a great night with only 2 wu. Today had the same am nap, then he was rubbing his eyes around 3 hr A time like yesterday but I didn't put him down. I pushed to 3 h10 min but got a30 min pm nap. And the nw have started too tonight! Poo!

Is it possible he still needs 3-3-4? Or am I back in the madness cos he's recovered from the cold? I haven't ben capping am nap yet. Im petrified to!

Katie, how did your am nap cut go?

[j.and.e]

following along! I have done 1hr this am xx

[katiepierce]

Hi all,

Little update from me.

So yesterdat was first day of nap cutting. Not sure what time he woke for the day as hubby was on duty (I had earplugs in!) He heard him at 4.45, 5.45 and started shouting at 6.30 - not sure what time he actaully woke up!

Nap 1 - 9.30 - 10.15
Nap 2 - 1 - 2.40 (cried out at 1hr15 hour mark but pretty sure he went back off)
Bed - 6.30

He then had a NW at 3.30 which took 40mins to get back to sleep then woke for the day at 6.30

Don't know what to make of all that really! He is teething a bit so don't know whether to blame NW on teeth or OT. He was def shattered by BT hence the 6.30 put down. Would really like that afternoon nap to be 2 hours, that would help him get to bedtime without OT, just not sure how to get there, a cry out at 1hr15 is def OT here so maybe I should have done nap 2 a bit earlier??? Dunno.

Anyway doing the same today, I'm def guilty of chopping and changing too much so want to give LO a chance to adjust this time before I decide if its working or not.

shremummy - your tuesday looks great! Rubbish about getting that bust nap yesterday afternoon though, I hate those! Hope today is going ok 

Hi J and E! - how did the rest of your day yesterday go?

Katie. XX