so done with the 30-45 min naps!! 3mo

[heidiruthie]

i'm about ready to throw up my hands and admit defeat on the nap issue, except that then i'd have a chronically OT DD on my hands and that doesn't sound like much more fun than what i'm doing.

so. she falls asleep in her crib. she sleeps for 30-45 min and will NOT be re-settled. because i have 2 other LO's who need me and simply CANNOT be left alone for large amounts of time, i AP her for the remainder of her nap by wearing her in my moby wrap. she usually sleeps for another hour in there, but its getting more and more difficult to keep her asleep in there. i walk around the kitchen with the oven exhaust fan on for white noise and shush my boys so they don't wake her and i'm getting really tired of being a prisoner in my own kitchen just so the baby can get a proper nap.

however, i've tried W2S and she just wakes up completely (she is SUCH a light sleeper and very touchy) and HTTJ and a bit of PU/PD which is just too time consuming for me with my other 2. i just want to know, am i doing something wrong?? and when will this end??? her A time is usually 1 hour 30 min, but i've both shortened and lengthened it to see if that will help and it doesn't. too short and she screams and fights me cuz she's not tired enough and too long and she gets OT and i have to AP her to sleep by rocking her cuz she hates pat.shh.

i'm tired of living my life in tiny little 45 minute bursts! please tell me there is a light at the end of the tunnel! that's all i need to know to get through it, unless you have some other magical solution!

our usual EASY:

7:30-E
7.30-9.00-A
9-9.45-S (then AP S till 10.45 or 11)
11:00-E
11.00-12.30-A
12.30-1.15-S (then AP S till 2 or 2.30, but this one is often difficult to get her to nap that long)
2.30-E
2.30-4.00-A
4.00-4.45-S (and this is where we run into problems because often she won't go back to sleep in the moby, so i'm stuck with too many hours until BT which results in an early BT)
6.00-E
6.15- BT often OT because i don't want to put her down any earlier, but she would be ready to sleep by 5.45 i'm sure.

[Tweakster]

(((hugs))). Well there's lots of light but don't know when it will happen for you - since you have two other LOs it's hard to sleep train.  I think you are doing the right thing by APing in the wrap when you can.  Does she sleep in the stroller/buggy?  In the car?  Just looking for ways to get you out of the house.  How about a swing?

For sleep training methods, I'd avoid PU/PD, she's too young and it's stimulating.  Shush/pat is a better method for this age group.  I know you say she hates it but she's probably just fighting it because she's OT (or UT in some cases).  I'd keep going with it.  Can you get any help in while you sleep train?  If you sat in her room for naps for a while you might be able to pinpoint when she's jolting and then only need to go back in just before for some HTTJ.  It would take a few solid days of just watching her and logging stuff, and for that your boys need to be occupied.  What about a film for them to watch during at least the PM nap? Then you could take them out and AP the third nap?

It's nothing you are doing wrong, I started sleep training my kid at this age and it took a couple of months, about 4 to be exact lol. But most kids get it much sooner than him, he was a stubborn one

She doesn't have reflux does she?

I never found any magic at that age.  For us, the magic happened after the first year when I could put my kid down for nap and bedtime and walk away with no props, no AP, no issues.  That was our magic.

[creations]

Have you tried white noise in her room rather than standing with the kitchen fan on?
buy a CD or download (v cheap, even free from some sites, burn to CD) some white noise or pink noise to play in her room for all naps, stick the CD player on repeat.

Like Wendy has already said PUPD isn't appropriate for this age.  If she is too upset to settle in the cot then by all means PU but I'd get her thoroughly calm/happy and very very sleepy before attempting to put her back in the cot, then use shush/pat to get her off to sleep.

You can also adapt the shush/pat.
She maybe likes the shush if she likes the fan white noise or if you play white noise in her room then leave out the shush.  With or without white noise some can get frustrated with the shush noise, try using a key phrase instead, some thing like 'it's sleepy time now'.  This can be repeated and repeated in a lovely hypnotic mantra-like way and the sound of your voice is likely to be soothing.  As she gets older the key phrase can be used at the end of wind down and it can have a magical effect, like Pavlov's dogs the key phrase triggers sleep.
Adapting the pat is fine too.  Some don't like the pat and it isn't advised for refluxers so in it's place you can use a rub, on the back, side, hip, tummy, or stroke her head...something that is calming and soothing.  If she likes being rocked I would suggest rockign her in her cot by placing a firm hand on her and rocking her that way (find an optimum speed that seems to sooth, possibly quick small fast jiggling movement), she will get the motion but at the same time will be learning to sleep in the cot - the feel of the mattress beneath her rather than the sling and if/when she opens her eyes she will see the correct view of her room from cot level rather than from being held or in the kitchen.  Gradually becoming happier to sleep in the cot for longer periods.  You can reduce and wean the rocking hand down to a still hand and then none at a later point when naps are longer.  It's easier to wean this than to wean sleeping in the sling.

That said, I totally agree with Wendy that you need to try to get out a bit for yourself and your other LOs.  I used to have a mad dash to the car to get us out so that we could be somewhere in time to get him in the sling/pram for his nap.

[heidiruthie]

thanks for the replies, ladies!

wendy: she does NOT sleep anywhere else besides her crib and the baby wrap!! she hates her carseat, so that eliminates the stroller as well since the carseat slips into the stroller and we do have a swing downstairs, but since she is touchy and prone to OS, she just won't close her eyes in there. in regards to my boys, it actually takes a bit for her to fall asleep initially for her nap, so i am in her room for about 15 min. for that and they watch a tv show while i'm upstairs. then, 45 min later its just too much to ask them to sit still for another 20 minutes or so. i've tried and they come banging the door down within 5 min. my middle one is having such a tough time with this transition and is needing me more than ever, so i hate to always be telling them to stay away. and no, i don't have help. all my friends have lo's of their own and my mil is recovering from surgery, plus she works normally. its so tough!! she has a bit of reflux, but hasn't seemed to be bothering her lately.

creations: we do have a white noise machine in her room turned up quite loud, the way she likes it. i've got dark curtains plus blankets thrown over the windows so it is BLACK in there!! i like the sleepy time phrase, i should start using that. in regards to the rocking movements in her crib, i've tried that, she likes being patted on her bum, but again its time consuming and my boys!! they just won't stay away long enough for me to get her back down. i have tried actually rocking her back to sleep a few times when dh is home to watch the boys and the funny thing is, i can never get her back into her crib after that, she awakens so easily after her initial 45 min.

anyhow, i agree about getting out more. i'm struggling with PPD on top of all of this, which is why i'm dying to see a light at the end of the tunnel.

any advice on tweaking her EASY so that she isn't so OT by bedtime?

[creations]

Heidi, I'm sorry to hear you're having a hard time and also the PND too, hugs xx

Have you seen this?
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=85499.0

Have you tried going into prior to the 45 min mark and starting the bum pat to sooth her through the transition before she fully wakes?  I know you have your others to care for, it might only take a few mins if you time it just right?

[heidiruthie]

i am just feeling sick to my stomach. her naps have gone downhill over the past few days, from 45 min down to mostly 10 min. AND that is when i rock her to sleep! she is just not settling in her crib AT ALL and now bedtime is a nightmare! because of her short naps, she's so OT so i put her to bed at 6pm tonight and its now 7.45pm and i've gone back in there probably close to 20 times to try to re settle her. it seems that she's just not happy unless she's in my arms and moving, so i'm rocking her and sort of jiggling her bum and even then she's still tricky to get down. i've definitely tried doing all kinds of similar movements while she's in her crib, but she is now getting seemingly angry at me and sort of howling when i don't pick her up! you said pu/pd is too OS for her age, so what age would you recommend starting her on that? my poor 2 year old was downstairs watching thomas on repeat while i was upstairs trying for ages to get the baby to settle before i could put him down for bed. when my dh came home, i just burst into tears! and then the baby woke up again....

when will my life no longer revolve around getting a baby to fall asleep?

i checked out the link. so many of the ideas there take time that i just can't spare away from my boys, but the overstimulation thing caught my eye. its so much tougher this time to keep the stimulation low with her brothers running around the house, but i'll begin trying to keep her calm by wearing her in the baby carrier before nap time. i'm finding this so rough. if she acted fine and happy after a 45 minute nap, i'd be happy to allow her to keep taking them! but she definitely is not okay and needs more sleep and i'm finding this such a burden. we tried getting out and about on sunday, which led to her having back to back 30 minute naps and before i knew it she was melting down and would NOT STOP CRYING. and i just kept thinking, "this is so not worth it!" meaning the getting out of the house part. which means that i've been a prisoner in my own house again this past week because i'm terrified of another meltdown. it seems that she needs the white noise from the oven exhaust to fall asleep in the baby carrier now and me shushing till i'm blue in the face just doesn't cut it.

sorry, just needed to vent a bit. i constantly wonder how all those moms with 4 or more kids do it, who go here there and everywhere without a thought to their babies' nap schedule. they must all have angel babies, i guess. i keep getting people telling me to just let her cry it out and its bugging me so much!

[stevesmum]

I'm feeling for you! I've only got one older sibling to contend with, but even I'm finding OS a problem. Dad's as much OS as the brother!!! I've only been having success with pressure on the back the WHOLE time as bubba jolts ALOT. This is really hard and I've had to resort to some interesting techniques.... I had people tell me to cry it out too, and I lasted 1 nap. Not my strongest suit - letting my bubbas cry. As for noise, i used the radio for my eldest when i was childminding other people's kids. At least it's human and your voice doesn't wear out. Sorry I can't be of much help - but actually have a look on page 231 of BWSALP as Tracy does pupd for a 3.5month old. I think i found another example of its use for a bub in between 3-4months too, but i can't remember the page - i'm pretty sure its close to that one, which is in the pupd chapter and before the 3hr-4hr transition timetable.
Hope this helps, do hope things get better there for you.

[creations]

I must again advise against PUPD at this age.
PUPD doesn't actually put your LO to sleep, it is a method which Tracy described as being 'a measure of last resort'.  The method itself calls for soothing in the cot, it also must be understood thoroughly and carried out properly, it is HARD work and you should likely not attempt it alone, particularly as you are suffering with PND too.

Looking at your LO's routine and any other problems which might be disrupting sleep is primary.
Is she feeding well?  Is there any sign of reflux or silent reflux?  Is there any other medical complaint or possible medical issue?  Are you still on the 3.5hr EASY or have you changed it recently?

is it possible to AP her full nap in the sling to avoid OT and give you a bit of a break (yes I know it is not much of a break when she's attached to you but it's better than struggling with her in the bedroom with you both getting upset and your other two being told to stay quiet etc - is it possible to take her out in the sling for a walk so you can all get out again?).

Is it possible for you or DH to download some white noise/pink noise/brown noise to burn to disc and play in her room.  You can get one which sounds like a fan, set it on repeat.  There are many, available from lots of different place but I've taken the liberty of having a quick look on your behalf
http://www.amazon.com/Brown-Noise-For-Sleep/dp/B001YWGM8W/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1321564467&sr=8-8

lots of hugs to you x  You WILL get through this x

[clazzat]

10 minute naps for my dd2 were definitely ot/os - if it will work then I would nap her in the sling for a day or so to catch her up. I also had to cut dd2's a time way down to prevent her getting ot (another touchy one), so she had very short a times for her age for a long time - it might be worth cutting back a bit to see if that helps.

Sadly, though, I can't really be much help - I am seriously struggling with getting through this with number 3 as well, and I can't imagine how it can be done. A friend of mine has 10 children, and I do not see how she manages!  However, even though things are pretty dreadful here, we do get a 2h nap once a week or so, so perhaps that can be your light at the end of the tunnel? I haven't been able to undertake any serious sleep training either, so anything that ds has managed, he has managed on his own.

One thing - ds won't sleep unless he is on his tummy. I would understand if you didn't want to try it, but perhaps your dd would sleep better/longer on her tummy?

[*Ali*]

Do you swaddle her? We have started using a Woombie (zip-up sleeping pod type thing) and it really helps with the jolts whilst allowing my DS to move his arms where he wants them and not be able to break out.

[heidiruthie]

thanks for the responses!

yes, i swaddle, use white noise, she feeds great, is on a 3.5 hour EASY, but i'm hoping to switch to the 4 hour one soon. def. no medical issues as she is happy as a clam when well rested and awake. and she sleeps on her side/tummy, will NOT sleep on her back!

i took your advice and wore her in the baby sling for a full nap just to get the boys out of the house and to the park. that did all of us a world of good. then i began putting her in the sling about 10 min before her usual nap time to wind her down and keep the OS at bay. and by doing this i discovered that i've been underestimating her A time...... i was putting her down after 1.5 hours and she can easily do up to 2 hours IF i wind her down in the sling first. so happy to discover that since it will make it much easier to move to a 4 hour EASY and it brought her naps back up to 45 minutes. by experimenting a bit the past few days, i've found that if she has a solid morning nap (45 min in the crib, then the rest AP'd in the sling) i can get away with allowing her to nap for only 45 min for her mid-day nap and she is fine! even stays up for her full 2 hours. then her pm nap becomes another solid nap instead of a catnap and that is, i believe what helped solved the OT BT problem. after a solid pm nap, she is happy for about 1.5 hours after which i nurse her and put her into her crib awake and she falls asleep on her own!! so this is huge success. i'm still not getting anything longer than 45 min in her crib, but at least the regression has been taken care of and its nice knowing that she can handle a short nap in the day as long as she still gets a couple of good ones. that means i can spend so much more time with my boys!

thanks for the advice and hugs. don't know what i'd do without BW!! :x

[creations]

Heidi, I'm pleased to hear you've had some success in getting the naps back to 45 mins and extending in the sling.  I hope this also means you are able to get out and about a bit too, it helps lift the general mood for parents and LOs doesn't it?

Just a bit concerned that you say LO is swaddled and tummy/side sleeping.  Are you aware of the SIDS risk?  It is of course a choice you have to make yourself, just wanted to make sure you are aware this can be a risk. xx

[Ima shel Alon]

Hi Heide, what a beautiful family you've got there.
I agree with Creations regarding the swaddle and the tummy sleeping, you should at least make yourself inform of the risks of that.
I was going to suggest UT, but I see that you got there before me and realized it yourself and I am happy you found some ease.
I also have a touchy one (even though I find it gets better when they get a bit older) and they do find it easier to sleep in a carrier or a sling because it blocks stimulation. You just do what you have to do.
Have you taken her to the ped to check if really the Reflux is under control? Was she diagnosed with Reflux or it's just your feeling?
And honey, are you doing something about your PPD? Could you talk to your Dr. about it? It does make seem things much harder perhaps the right treatment (be it meds or therapy) will make you feel a whole lot better.

[creations]

I agree with Ima about looking into the reflux question.  I know you feel it hasn't been bothering her but I've been caught out by this several times myself with DS who has silent reflux, even when the doc said his meds were correct they were not and it was a lovely BW who was able to guide me in the right direction.  When I spoke with his paediatrician she increased his med dose by almost 4 times!  So he ws on a quarter what he needed! No wonder his naps were going horribly wrong!

The comfort in the sling and the discomfort in the cot (laying down) do sound like reflux could be the cause.  It's worth checking out even if it turns out not to be this, you would need to rule it out before taking sleep training more seriously anyway. xx

[heidiruthie]

thanks, ladies!

she was never diagnosed with reflux, it was just my feeling... i know for a fact that she had food sensitivity and i was off of dairy and a bunch of other stuff for months. she often has gurgles in her tummy that almost come to the surface and she can't breathe for a bit and her face goes red and when it finally subsides she screams once or twice and then is fine. that's what i assumed was reflux. the reason i thought it hasn't been bothering her lately is because i used to have to walk her for over an hour in the sling before BT in order for her to be comfortable and in the past month i've been able to just lay her down and she goes right to sleep, this only 15 min. or so after BF, so i was assuming that if she was uncomfortable due to reflux, that it would still be exhibiting at BT?

and thanks for the caution on the tummy sleeping/swaddle. i do have a wedge, so she isn't flat on her tummy, she is on her side but the wedge is snug against her tummy, so she is sort of on an angle. hard to explain, but i will def. read up on it. SIDS freaks me out.

i just started meds a week ago and have had 1 therapy appointment due to PPD. i'm waiting for the meds to kick in because the anxiety i feel at all times is out of this world! DH was a sweetie and made me an appointment to get my hair done this afternoon at 1:00 and you should have seen me this morning, frantically writing down different EASY scenarios and crossing them out until i figured out how i could have her full, happy and awake during that time. the routine is what stresses me out, specifically the sleep part of it. i was the same way with DS1 who was also VERY touchy, and i was pretty fine with DS2 who was textbook, so i know that my anxiety is caused by the fear of an OT meltdown. that and i just know how important naps are for night sleep and when i'm sleep deprived i'm about a million times more anxious! just something i've always struggled with. i'm trying so desperately hard to enjoy this stage with my baby as she is our last LO, but there are many times that i can't help but wish this year would go by more quickly....i find things get so much easier once they're a year old. its sad, but i'm just not a baby mama.

ANYhow, thanks again for your concern and encouragement you ladies are wonderful!