Chatting before bed

[swmw]

I'm hoping that someone can offer me some advice or tell me it's just a phase and it will pass. My lo is 19 mths and never really been a great sleeper but she would always go to sleep easily. Put her in her cot and she would SS and fall asleep within 10 mins. This past week she has started chatting to herself A LOT before she falls asleep - 2 hrs has been the longest! I've been pulling my hair out! I thought maybe it was a wind down issue? We've always done bath, milk, book then bed. Today I cuddled her and walked around her room holding her for as long as my arms could hold her before I put her down and she's still happily chatting away. I know it may sound like under tired but I really don't think it is. If anything she's overtired. 
I *think* she has high sleep needs. Sometimes she can wake from a 2h30 nap and look shattered. She's an early riser (again OT but not sure )
A typical day is like this: 
5.00 onwards wake up - don't get her out of her cot till 6 
12.30 nap (if at nursery 1 hr only, at home ranges 1h30 to 2 hrs +)
6.30 bed time - aiming to be asleep before 7. 

She's at nursery 3 days a week so that doesn't help. They have fixed nap at 12.30. Im scared of putting her to sleep too much earlier at home because i know the nap times are fixed at nursery and i dont want to confuse her body clock! Sometimes if she's really OT I put her down at 12. 
Any advice or thoughts? My OH says to leave her and that I can't make her go to sleep but this chatting is really messing up her sleep. The other night she didn't fall asleep till 8.15 and then she woke at 5 

[Roseii]

hiya, just to clarify is she just chatting, not crying? It does sound like UT to me

[swmw]

Hi Charlibob, thanks for your reply, it's mainly chatting, its mixed with the occasional whimper, cry out, whinge but mainly happily chatting. We get long moments of silence - 5 mins - when you think shes gone to sleep - then she starts up again! She looks shattered today..... That's why I suspect OT, and we never really get more than a 10 hour night at the moment......

[clairebear79]

Hi there - a couple more questions for you:

Do you get lots of wakings in the early part of the night?  Does she settle better on nights when she's only had 1.5hr nap than days when she has 2hr+ nap?  What sort of night do you get on her nursery days when she only sleeps 1hr?

I agree with Charli re UT.  My first thought is that you have a bit of an UT/OT loop going on.

Firstly, I think maybe putting her down 30mins before you want her asleep could be contributing to your issues.  If she is not tired *enough* at the point when you put her into bed then she may get a bit worked up & chatter so long that she ultimately ends up OT, whereas if you had put her down a bit nearer to the time when you want her asleep (you say she used to settle in 10mins???) then she might settle more quickly.

Sometimes she can wake from a 2h30 nap and look shattered. She's an early riser (again OT but not sure )

Secondly, does she still go into bed at 6.30pm (aiming for 7pm asleep) even if she naps for this long?  What I am thinking is this: she might be going to bed UT, esp on the days when she does 2hr+ naps.  She will have only done 4hrs or less A time when you put her in bed at 6.30pm.  If she is not tired *enough* then she will either fall asleep before she is truly tired enough & so do a short night, or chatter to the point of OT & do a short night.  Either way its not going to give you a decent night sleep of 11hr+ IYSWIM?  Then you get EW, then she is super tired by naptime (b/c of the short night), so ends up either doing a short 1hr (OT) nap, OR a mega long catch up nap, and still looks tired so you put her to bed early and so the cycle continues.

I am thinking maybe you need to consider:
1) gradually push BT later by 5mins every few days until its at 7.30pm
2) not putting her into bed until 10-15mins before you want her asleep.

If the above don't help then maybe try:
1) capping the nap at 2hrs max (I think this should be pretty reasonable for a 19month old - shoot me if I'm wrong ladies!)
2) If she is making it to naptime ok most days, push the nap (and BT) a touch later.

What do you think?

[swmw]

Hi Claire, Thanks for your reply.
Ok - if she's OT we always get a early night waking between 9.30-10.00. Been like that since she was about 5mths old!!! More recently it's started to be a bit later - maybe closer to 11. She cries out for upto 1 min and will usually self settle with her comforter.
She may settle quicker on nights that she's only had a short nap - but we nearly always get disturbances between 9-11 on those nights and usually early starts too. Nursery days are always followed by early starts - as early as 4 sometimes.
I have thought we maybe in a UT/OT loop but I'm going crazy trying to figure it out! Because she always LOOKS tired I'm presuming she is OT?
Traditionally we've always had better night is she was asleep before 7 but I guess things change and her sleep needs change. Recently things have been a bit messed up with canines coming throu and going on holiday. We've never really got back to our routine that we've had - we just have this chattering!
Recently I have started cutting her nap at 2hrs as I did suspect she was not tired enough to sleep after a really long nap
I'll try for in bed at 7..... See if that makes any difference. Is she does a short nap should you still hold out for the later bed time or should I put her down earlier?
Thanks for your advice xxx

[swmw]

I'm back and things have got very bad very quickly and I'm desperate for some help! If she wasn't overtired before she certainly is now! 
So I realised her afternoon activity time was too short so we put bedtime back to 7.15 and I thought I'd still cap the nap at 2 hours. 
We are still getting the constant talking before bed time and we are averaging 9-10 hrs sleep only). She's constantly stirring and jerking - it's like she can't settle. The only way I can get her to sleep in to make her cry (by holding her really closely) and then after a few mins putting her in her cot and rocking her. 
Here is her routine the past few days: 

Woke 5.30 (after frequent nw) nap 12.30 (woke after 1 hr but resettle) I woke her after total nap of 2h15 - bed 7.15 , asleep 7.40 NW: 3.00

Woke 5.30. Nap 12.30-2.15, bed 7.10, asleep 8, NW:3-4.00 - ended up in our bed (rarely done) Woken at 7 

Woken 7, nap 1-2 at nursery, bed 7.05, asleep 7.45 (had to settle her) NW: 9

Woke 5.15, nap 12.30-2.30, bed 7.15, asleep 7.40 (had to settle) NW:10,3

Woke 6, nap 1-2 nursery, bed 6.45 (looked shattered) asleep 7.15 (had to settle) NW: 9.30,12,1,2,3.   Woke 5.20

As you can see last night was a mess. Woke every hour 4 times. 

I'm refusing to settle her tonight as I don't want to become a prop. She was put to sleep at 7.15 and is still chatting away at 8. 

With the NW she usually SS after 1-2 mins of crying. She has a comforter that she MUST HAVE to get to sleep.  

How do I get her to go to sleep? I don't understand why she's suddenly started doing this. She is a real handful during the day and very grumpy, easily irritated and having tantrums.

I'm feeling like a bit of a failure of a mum at the moment 

 Any advice appreciated x

[swmw]

 Last night she went to sleep at 8.20 by herself and woke up at 4.50 

[clairebear79]

Hi there

OK so I may have a change of heart here & say this is sounding more & more OT.  Esp with the fact she is only napping for 1hr at nursery.  I think this may actually be the root of your troubles.

What is the sleeping environment like there?  Is she in a darkened room or a brightly lit nursery?  How do they settle her at naptime?  And do they leave her to resettle if she wakes early.  These are all issues I had to discuss with my DS's nursery when he started b/c the babies all sleep in the same room as the other babies who are playing & the staff stand at the end of their cots until they go to sleep.  I knew my DS would not do this & was proved right when he would only sleep 30mins all day. I asked them to put him to sleep in the darkened nursery that the older toddlers use, and they put him in & leave him be & he sleeps so much better now.  Also, will nursery not flex at all at on the fixed nap?  Nap at 1pm is pretty late when she got up at 6am so there is no wonder she is tired bless her. 

So....I think, on nursery days, if she has only napped for 1hr, then doing EBT is a must - it should help with the OT.  But my previous comments about doing a later BT when she sleeps 2hrs+ still stands, b/c I think in this situation she would definitely be UT, & then you will get a short night leading to her being OT by naptime.

How many days is she in childcare?  Another option that some mums use is that on days at home, they have 2 naps (assuming she would take 2 given her age now?).  Keep the morning nap VERY short (10-20mins max) so it is just a bridging nap to get her through to usual naptime.  Just might help in the short term with getting over the OT.

[swmw]

Hi Claire, Thanks for your reply.
The sleeping situation at nursery is terrible for my lo. They all sleep on matts on the floor all together. Lights on (apparently they r not allowed to turn the lights off?) I gather that some days she settles really easily - literally walks over to the matts after lunch, lies down and goes to sleep! Other times she's a monkey and keeps trying to play and they sit and patt her. When she wakes she stands up and wonders off to play. I have explained that this is a sleep transition problem and if they are there to catch her BEFORE she wakes and pat her she may transition.  There was one girl Who could do that but she's moved rooms now. When she did that we got 1h30min naps. I have tried to explained to them about my lo's sleep needs but I think they just think I'm neurotic. Because she's fine at nursery - even when OT - I guess they don't think it's a problem. It's quite a big room/group she's in with quite a few toddlers so also I think it's difficult for them to keep track of who's been sleeping for how long. Also - she doesn't have her comforter at nursery. She amazingly sleeps without it. (when in the baby room she used to play with it and the girls thought it was actually stopping her from sleeping so in the toddler room they didn't give it to her - was cross when I found out but apparently the second day she didn't even cry for it so they didn't give it to her)
I've looked at changing her nursery but there's only 1 in the area that has dark rooms for sleeping in and I didn't like it. She would definately sleep there but I didn't get the right feeling from there.
She's at nursery all day Monday, with me Tuesday - so catches up and has a good nap, nursery Wednesday, half day Thursday when she comes home and usually has a good nap but it's a bit later by the time she's home. Family Friday. So it's only 2 day/wk with bad nap & 1 day with a later nap....... But this seems to be enough to make her OT.....
Also - she wouldn't do 2 naps.....
I've considered speaking to the nursery manager about the situation but I don't want to annoy the staff looking after her and her key worker by going above their heads. But also I'm not really sure what she can do about it?? 
Thanks for your advice. It really helps to have someone else's opinion! I feel clueless at the moment!
X

[Roseii]

Hi hun rather than go the manager could you have a really Frank chat with her key worker? Just say you realise it's not all that common place (to them ) but she is v sensitive with her sleep and you need them to work with you, it's not an unrealistic expectation given I expect you pay a lot for her to be there!!
Oh and I guess super early b/t for now?