carseat sleeper won't go to sleep independently

[kimbo613]

DD has been sleeping in her carseat almost exclusively since she came home.  She tends to urp when on her back, and choke on it, and gag, and not sleep well.  We haven't been brave enough to try back sleeping again yet.

So for the first two weeks or so, I would put her in the carseat drowsy and she would nod off on her own.  Then we had Thanksgiving with lots of family, OS, OT, and lots of people holding her.  Then the three week GS.  It got harder and harder to put her down.  Now she has to be completely out, which is usually 20+ minutes, but can take up to 40-50 minutes sometimes.

She will start falling asleep and be relaxed for like 2 minutes, then she just opens her eyes really wide, then needs to grunt and stretch out and change positions and just wakes herself up more.  Then I have to rock or bounce her, or let her pacify on the breast, and if milk comes she gets really frustrated.  Won't take a paci, or my finger.  Hates, hates, hates the swaddle.  She just grunts and stretches until she works up into a frenzy.  We basically wrap her loosely in a warm blanket and tuck it away from her face when she's asleep.  I can't do this anymore, but I don't have any ideas for helping her settle in the carseat.  I just can't get to anywhere to pat effectively.

[Claudiamummy]

Hi there.... Is reflux an issue?

[kimbo613]

Not really.  She actually doesn't spit up that much or that often.  I think she just has an overactive gag reflex. 

[*Kara*]

Silent reflux doesn't cause spit up and can be just as painful... have a peek at this

http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=654.0

[~Sara~]

*hugs* Kim...we're right there in the trenches with you!  I don't suspect reflux is an issue for us, but rather just teaching Madeleine HOW to go to sleep independently.

So, bear with me here as I preach what I'm struggling to practice   I was re-reading TBWSAYP, and Tracy said that even for LOs who have been on EASY from Day 1 and the parents do everything right (right winddown, hit the sleep window just so, do shh/pat, stay with LO a few minutes after they're asleep, etc.), it can still take 4-6 weeks for LO to be an independent sleeper.  She flat out said that some babies take a lot more work to get to sleep.  Even though we're stuggling to get M down without holding her to sleep, it gives me hope that it takes ALL babies some time to "get there."  We're taking baby steps.  First, look for the right time to start the wind down (we're not that great at it, tbh).  Second, swaddle her up (she hates it!).  Third, just sit still with her (shh/pat makes her cry even harder).

Hope that helps a bit.

[kimbo613]

She doesn't seem to be in pain at all.  She is gassy, but I think that's more from me having forceful letdown problems.  She is learning to deal with this, though, and letting the extra milk dribble out, but still swallowing a lot of air.  She also, from day one, has been a super fast/efficient eater.  She will nurse for 4-8 minutes, then burp and I change her diaper, then eat for another 3-4 minutes and be done.  So I don't suspect reflux, but I'll keep an eye on it.

Things have actually been a bit better.  I just got so frustrated that I decided to just put her down earlier like I was doing before.  I have caught the timing right sometimes and she still does the eyes popping open and struggling/wiggling/grunting, but then settles amazingly.  I don't always get it right, but at least it gives me the opportunity to leave her to it and check on DS, then help her if she needs settling.  I know she can do it by herself cause she manages to sleep for long periods without intervention.  So just trying to be confident and not project my stress

Hugs to you, too, Sara.

[creations]

I think Kara is on to something with the possible silent reflux.
Discomfort sleeping on her back (burping and choking on it), gas, sleeping better in the more upright position offered by the car-seat, these things do have a hint of silent reflux about them.
Also, it just might be possible that the efficient nursing (short time at the breast) could possibly be a reluctance to take more milk due to reflux discomfort.  Silent refluxers can reduce their intake to avoid pain.  This does not necessarily lead to weight loss (my DS with silent reflux took little milk but maintained the same centile in weight and is approaching 11 months now) although it can if they reduce their intake dramatically.

You have to do what you have to do, but car-seat sleeping really isn't advisable.
Car-seats are designed to protect your LO during impact, they are not designed to offer the correct posture for baby.  Long periods of time in a car-seat really aren't good for your LO.  If your LO has a preference to a more upright position for sleep (whether reflux is an issue or not) you could look into cot wedges (which go either under or over the cot sheet depending on the angle of the wedge) and cot blocks (which go safely under the cot legs at one end), you can even use wedges and blocks at the same time to increase the angle.  They also make wedges for moses baskets I believe.
I would advise you get your LO into a moses basket, crib or cot as soon as possible.

Congrats on your lovely bundle btw, the photo is utterly adorable!

[kimbo613]

Thanks for the info about the car seat.  That really makes sense.  We really do want to get her in the crib soon.  I might try it soon just cause her sleep is so sucky anyway.  Also, the night we spent in the hospital, the bassinet had a slight wedge.  And she did the chocking/gagging thing there.  I ended up propping her up by the side so she wasn't on her back.

Is there a way to put the crib at an angle without spending a bunch of money?

Would the efficient nursing be a sign of reflux even if she's going a good time between feeds.  She does 2.5-3 hours during the day.  I used to have to wake her for this, but naps have gone wonky, so it doesn't always happen anymore.  She also goes 4-5 hours at night.

I managed to make her take the paci today.  I was tired of being a human pacifier and with the problems with forceful letdown, her stimulating my nipples wasn't helping anything.  She's actually doing pretty well settling with that, unless she knocks it out with her hands or something

[creations]

Is there a way to put the crib at an angle without spending a bunch of money?

When I read up on angling for reflux it really came down to spending some money as the gradient needed to help the reflux can't be acheived with other non-money spending methods.  However, not all LOs need that gradient iyswim.  You can try a pillow underneath the mattress at one end of the cot.  You may read on other sites about propping cot legs with books but I don't think this is safe and it takes a HUGE stack of books to make a decent angle.

Sleeping on the left side can help.  There are positioners you can buy to make this a little safer too, or again some people use a rolled up towel to wedge baby so they don't fully roll onto their faces but you have to be aware that SIDS recommendations are to not have anything in the cot with LO.  Some people put the rolled towel under the sheet so it is more contained rather than being in there loose.  Like I said, you do what you have to do, what you are comfortable with based on being aware of risks balanced with your LOs comfort.
As you're getting poor sleep in the car seat I'd make the move to the cot straight away.

I'm not a reflux expert - can only say how my LO was really - he went around 2.5hrs (going up to a clear 3 hrs at around 4 or 5 weeks) between feeds and did a good long stretch at night from early on (5 to 7 hrs so was classed as sleeping through from just a few weeks, he did this on his own I hasten to add), he suffered silent reflux in those early weeks but I didn't recognise it and my health visitor wasn't particularly helpful.  It was by 4 months when it had become so bad I couldn't ignore it any longer that we finally got on the road towards meds.  Looking back I wish I'd pushed for better medical attention in the earlier days to save him the pain.

[kimbo613]

Well, the mattress is propped up with a pillow and rolled blankets under the sheet to keep her from sliding down.  I tried getting her to sleep in just the sleep sack, but she startled a lot more and woke herself, A time was getting to be 1hr20min.  Ended up swaddling her and she was out like a light    We'll see how long she sleeps, but I'm so excited.  She looks so much more comfortable

[creations]

What good news!
The little ones do love the comfort of a firm swaddle

for what it's worth, my LO was a back sleeper so I too couldn't really pat his back, I found a tummy rub worked pretty well.  Also patting can aggravate reflux so, just in case LO does have reflux, it might be worth adapting the shush/pat method to a shush/rub, or a very light pat on the nappy area (no firm patting on chest or tummy).

I hope you have continued success x