nearing 2-1 transition, long days, short nights.

[clairebear79]

No problem!

Well that proves that 3hrs is too little doesn't it.  At least you know now!  IIWM I would stick with the 3.5 then hun. 

No O isn't textbook AT ALL!  He's most definitely Touchy with a bit of a spirited streak.  Trust me we have NOT had a smooth ride with his routine, it has taken us a VERY long time to get where we are now!  We had EW from 5.5-15 months.  Short naps, early naps, OT for most of the time you name it....  But I have learned an awful lot from it. 

[mjohnson33]

Well that proves that 3hrs is too little doesn't it.

Actually when I brought it up to her she said it only took him 7 minutes to fall asleep so she didnt put him down until about 10:18 or so and he was asleep at 10:30 which was 3.5 hours...so maybe we put him in there are 3.25??  He did nap for 1.5 hours which is perfect!!!

Now he will go down about 3:15 and most likely wake himself up at an hour.  I have a good feeling about tonight!!!

Trust me we have NOT had a smooth ride with his routine, it has taken us a VERY long time to get where we are now!

So you have been through the journey like I have, except I wasnt really trying to fix anything b/c I just thought it was the way things were gonna be.  LOL

Sounds like a very common thing actually.   

[mjohnson33]

Clairebear, I am thinking he needs more awake time...tell me what you think?

WU 7
nap 1 10:30-12
nap 2 3:20-4:15
BT 7:50 asleep at 8:05

He woke on his own from both naps yesterday and I had barely any resistance at BT.  He slept from 8:05-12:10 and when he woke he was really fussing and then I tried to lay him down in the bed and he freaked out, screaming bloody murder.  So I put him in bed with me and he went right back to sleep.  But at about 2 or 3 he woke again and this time was just sitting up and seemed very awake for about an hour....sounds UT right?  How can I find the right balance here??  Seems like 3.5 is too much but 3 hours A is too little....I like the naps he gets on the shorter A times but then the nights he is still up....

When I have to wake him from both naps he has really bad nights due to OT.

Any advice you have would be appreciated!

[clairebear79]

Hun do you think this NW & freaking out issue could be more down to the cosleeping issue rather than simply down to routine?  Most LO's come into a lighter sleep 3-4hrs after BT & if he wakes & he is usually put into bed with you then when you lay him down he probably will freak IYSWIM?  I know you've got a thread asking for advice on that so if it continues then do ask there for help.  I'm afraid that bit isn't my forte!

WRT yesterday: it actually looks like a fairly good day on paper.  I think the only thing I'd be wary of is letting the last A time to BT be the longest, since it follows the shortest nap.

WRT him waking from his naps himself & the 1hr NW, you may be right that he is starting to get UT.  Its what I thought might happen.

I'd probably try & repeat as closely as possible again today & see what happens, as its better to observe for a few of days & then make a judgement rather than making a routine change based on 1 night alone IYSWIM?

The next step, if we decide he needs it, would then be to increase his A by 15mins before the AM nap.  I would personally also increase the A before the PM nap too, but you may want to judge that one for yourself, since you say he seems to struggle with that one a bit more.  Plus it doesn't hurt to put him down a wee bit UT for the PM nap anyway, since it will be capped.  The important thing to remember when we increase his A time though is that his PM nap will NEED to be cut shorter, or there won't be enough time to fit everything in.

So you would be looking at something more like:

WU: 7am
A = 3h 45mins
Nap: 10.45-12.15/12.30  (nap of 1.5hrs but possibly a bit longer)
A = 3h 45mins
Nap: 4pm (ish) - 4.45 (45mins max - less if nap is later)
A = 3h 15
BT: 8pm

[mjohnson33]

Hun do you think this NW & freaking out issue could be more down to the cosleeping issue rather than simply down to routine?

I am not sure really b/c he did have 2 good nights where he didnt do that on the same rountine.....   Its hard to say, but maybe...

I'd probably try & repeat as closely as possible again today & see what happens, as its better to observe for a few of days & then make a judgement rather than making a routine change based on 1 night alone IYSWIM?

Ok, will do.  Should be interesting since his A time is different with me, but if I just put him down at the same A time we should be ok. 

I will keep you posted! Thanks!!

[clairebear79]

Try lots of stimulation/physical play to help tire him out& def keep with the same A times.  Good luck!

[mjohnson33]

Thanks clairebear!!

[mjohnson33]

quick question...
here is our day
WU 7:15
nap 1 10:30-11:45
nap 2 3:20-4:25

what time should I do BT??  Still 8?? I think he will do ok on the 8.  All we can do is try I guess right?

[clairebear79]

Sorry I missed your post yesterday hun I've had a busy weekend with birthdays, swimming, housework & to top it off I've got tonsilitis. 

How did the day turn out in the end?  Did he go down at 8pm ok?

Can I ask how come you put him down after just 3h 15 in the AM rather than the 3.5hrs A as usual?  I see he did a 1h 15 nap - so this proves the theory of UT with any less A.

[mjohnson33]

I totally understand that you had a busy weekend.  No biggie.    So sorry you are sick!! Thats never any fun!! Do you still have a voice??

How did the day turn out in the end?  Did he go down at 8pm ok?

He actually did go down great, asleep at 8:05 with no resistance....problem is, he woke at 9:45 screaming bloody murder, crying real tears.    So I put him in bed with me b/c there was no way he was going to settle.   The night was ok, but he was in my bed and still kinda restless.  I am sure he doesnt sleep as good when he is with me b/c I move.  I try not to but I am sure I do and dont know and I am sure it wakes him.  I think the next step would be to put him back in his bed once I know he is asleep and keep doing that??

Can I ask how come you put him down after just 3h 15 in the AM rather than the 3.5hrs A as usual?

I honestly didnt think he would fall asleep that quickly and he was out without a peep.  I wanted to try a little less A time and see how he did.  I am pretty sure yesterday he was a little OT since he had 2 short naps. 

Its funny b/c the day he was really sick and I took him to the dr he had 2 really short naps too and a ton of A time and slept great....so whats the difference??  LOL I am not really asking for an answer, just thinking out loud. 

So here is today:
WU 7:20 (couldnt make myself wake him up this morning at 7, after a restless night, but didnt want him sleeping too much to mess up the day)
nap 1 10:30-12:05 (still less A time than 3.5 and he had a good nap)
nap 2 I am thinking I will put him down at 3:15 which would make it 3:30 and if hes not up by 4:30 then wake him.

I dont know what to do, I feel like at a loss here....I have been very consistent with things for a week tomorrow and still getting restless nights. 

[clairebear79]

Hun these things take time.    Our recent issues (which I won't bore you with here) took around 4-6 weeks to resolve so hang in there!  You're doing great!

WRT yesterday, I would still say the 1h 15 AM nap was UT due to the shorter A.  The PM nap IDK.  He may just have had his sleep quota, he may have been OT since he did a full 3.5hr A time.  Again he did a full 3.5hr A time to BT after a 1hr nap, so the 9.45pm WU could have been OT.  I hate to say it but I still don't think it helps with the co-sleeping b/c when he wakes he may well be screaming b/c he wants to be in with you.  WRT putting him in his bed once he's asleep, I think you might still have trouble with this b/c if he wakes again in the night then he won't be where he was when he fell asleep, so it might confuse him & encourage another round of screaming IYSWIM?

WRT today, I'd guess his good nap today is down to making up for the restless night.  I think I would do the PM nap as you suggested too.  I still think you really need to stick with the same A times for each & every nap so that we can see what is happening.  Remember only 2 days ago you were thinking he was getting UT?  He may well still be in an UT/OT loop, UT so short naps, then gets OT b/c of short naps IYSWIM?  But if you shorten the A times to make up for the OT you could actually end up compounding the problem, b/c what he may actually need, at the bottom of it all, is an A time increase.

Hope you have a better night.  I'm off to rest up now.xx

[mjohnson33]

You're doing great!

Thanks so much for the encouragement,  I know its a long process. 

Yes, I know the cosleeping is part of the problem but I was hoping if we got his routine down better he would wake less, thus not want to be with me, ya know?

Ok, I will stick to the A times as I have been, I have been trying to put him in there about 15 minutes early of the 3.5 hours so that he has those 15 minutes to wind down and get to sleep by 3.5 hours.  Do you suggest a shorter A time after the PM nap?   I just cant seem to get him down before 8. 

[mjohnson33]

So here was yesterday:
WU 7:20
nap 1 10:30-12:05 (woke on own)
nap 2 3:25-4:40 (woke on own) I decided to let him sleep a little longer b/c we werent getting any better results with capping his naps and he was extra tired it seemed.  he was still fussy when he woke after 1:15 nap....
BT 7:50 asleep at 8:05 with no resistance. 

He woke at 9:05 screaming, I resettled him and he slept until about 10:45 then did the same thing again.  I brought him in my bed b/c I would like to get some sleep so I am not exhausted for work.  Then he slept pretty good until about 3:30 then he was just awake for at least 1.5 hours, sitting up in bed with me just hanging out.  I kept laying him down and he just would lay there for a bit and then sit up again.  I am not really sure what time he finally fell back asleep but I did wake him at 7:05 today to keep him on track. 

I am not really sure what I want to do here b/c it seems nights are exactly the same as they were before I tried getting him on a routine.  We had 2 decent nights and now its going back to exactly what I was dealing with before.  Its very hard for me to deal with b/c I am not with him and all I am doing is obsessing over his sleep and its really wearing on me. And, not working. 

Clairebear, you really have given me so much advice and tried so hard but I feel like this is just not working right now. I know you say it takes time, but I feel like I should be moving forward and instead I am moving backwards.

[*Becky*]

ok hun, I know you are not going to like this but I do think part of the problem is the co-sleeping and I also think you may need to cut one of the naps. Sorry, probably not what you want to hear but when you hit the 2:1, even the early stages you can't expect great long naps AND good long nights.

Have you done some reading up on the 2:1??

I think the waking at night and wanting to play for 1.5 hours indicates that you need less sleep in the day. There is always going to be some OT involved unfortunately - it is a slow process usually but at the moment I think you are caught in an UT/OT loop.

What do you think?

[mjohnson33]

Have you done some reading up on the 2:1??

Oh yeah, LOL, I have read it, alot.  

Well, the issue here is he used to sleep more than this during the day and NEVER woke at night for 1.5 hours....so to me it sounds wierd that he needs less sleep.  

Things have been getting worse since I started this 2-1 a week ago, if I am doing the same schedule every day how is he getting in an UT/OT loop?? Just curious....and I am not ok with waking him anymore. It has just made things worse and I never know when is the right time to put him down and I am so frustrated and stressed out.   I hate obsessing over his sleep and if its not helping to obsess then I might as well just wing it and deal with it b/c I get the same results....