Author Topic: nearing 2-1 transition, long days, short nights.  (Read 9905 times)

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Offline mjohnson33

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nearing 2-1 transition, long days, short nights.
« on: January 30, 2012, 21:53:52 pm »
My DS is 13 months and we are currently moving towards the 2-1 transition (at least on the weekends). During the week for the sitters he does good naps but for me he wants to do massive amounts of A time causing very long days and EWs due to OT on the weekends.....

Anyway, (if I think he's tired) I put him down and he just plays or keeps throwing out binkies and his lovey protesting, how long do you allow this before you surrender the nap or pull him out of bed??  I have to keep going in there most times or he turns into hysterics.....and I am afraid I am starting bad habits APing.  He up until just recently would go to sleep on his own without any assistance....

Also, can someone post a link to WI/WO?

here is an example of our weekend(yesterday)
WU 6:30 (laid in bed and was up and down til we finally got up at 7:30)
nap 1 10:45-12:30 (woke after 30 minutes screaming had to resettle)
nap 2 4:10-5:45 (woke crying after about 30 minutes too had to resettle, then when he woke was fussing too)
BT 9:10 (put in there, he talked and played and then started throwing items out and crying) I kept going in, he would lay down and settle and I think it would be it and he would get up and eventually after walking in and out 5 times he started getting hysterical and if I left he freaked!!! What's the cause of all this?? He was exhausted and seemed OT in my opinion.....

I also want to add:
His crib is in my room....he has been suffering from chronic constipation and stomach issues since 4 months and we are finally seeing some improvement.  He starts out in his crib and then ends up in my bed after a few wakes...I eventually would like to break this habit, coming into my bed and move his crib in his own room but not sure how to tackle it and I do believe I have to wait until his stomach issues are resolved right??

Sorry this is so long!!! :(
« Last Edit: February 02, 2012, 14:29:01 pm by mjohnson33 »

Offline Buntybear

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Re: how long do you allow fighting before you surrender nap??
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2012, 22:25:16 pm »
Hiya, me again  ;)

Have you looked around this board? There is LOADS of advice on the 2-1 transition - it was my lifesaver!

Looking at your EASY I would hazard a guess he is getting to much sleep in the day and he needs a bit more A time. What tends to happen is that one nap gets shorter and the A times extend. Up to you if it is 1st or 2nd nap.

I remember with Olly that he gave tired cues early on and they were unreliable  ::) I would go with it and put him down but he was UT. I had to push through them and then he would sleep. Maybe try pushing that first A time out a bit?

Offline clairebear79

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Re: how long do you allow fighting before you surrender nap??
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2012, 22:31:47 pm »
Hi there.  Is the routine you posted typical of what he's doing at the moment?

I think you are right - he does sound like he is OT.  Waking 30mins into nap is a classic sign of that.  However, I think the reason is probably because he's getting too much day sleep & his days are too long hun.  Ideally he wants to be going down to bed 12-12.5hrs after he wakes up.  The difficulty you have is that he's taking 2 long naps, so needs a long A time after each nap in order to be tired enough to sleep.  This makes his day very long.  Whether he is OT or UT at BT who knows.  He may be UT b/c he had a huge nap at teatime, but he may also be OT b/c of the long day.  Either way, long day/too much day sleep means he does a short night, and he's then catching up on his lost night sleep by napping more in the day.  So letting him nap as long as he wants in the day is actually compounding the problem, IYSWIM?

I know I have said this before, but I really, really think he would fare much better if you cut one of the naps right back & get him into bed earlier, to keep his day shorter.  He will be less tired with a shorter day & less day sleep than he is now.

Looking at your routine I would probably choose to cut the PM nap b/c the AM nap is already pretty close to lunchtime.
I would probably start by capping the PM nap at 1hr, then in 3 days cap it at 45mins, then in another 3 days cap it at 30mins.  It may need to go even shorter but thats a good start.  As you do this he should need an earlier bedtime & should settle more easily.  In doing so this should help him lengthen his night, get past the OT & get you back on track.

What do you think?

ooh posted at same time as Buntybear.  Think we're thinking along similar lines although I'd probably cap PM nap before pushing AM A time & try & get some longer nights going first & this will help him cope better with extending the A time.

HTH.x

Offline chicagomom

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Re: how long do you allow fighting before you surrender nap??
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2012, 01:34:59 am »
hi mjohnson...i came back here after a while a way to see how you are managing in the 2-1.  my son put himself on a decent schedule finally - sleeps 11ish hours at night 6:30pm-5:45am, then takes a 1.5 hour nap in the a.m. 9:15-10:45ish, then a short 30-40 minute nap at 2:30pm and he wakes himself up from that one.  this has worked out very well for us and i'm guessing in another month or so that afternoon nap will be very difficult to come by.  the earliest i can put him down on 1 nap days is 11:45am because of a school run so that should be interesting...



Offline mjohnson33

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Re: how long do you allow fighting before you surrender nap??
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2012, 14:37:51 pm »
Thanks ladies....

Is the routine you posted typical of what he's doing at the moment?
Actually, no, he never does anything the same! :(
Here was yesterday:
WU 7:15(mind you BT was 9:45 night before and he was OT)
nap 1 10:15-12:05
nap 2 3:15-4:30
BT 8:20 (asleep at 8:30) but only with my help.  As soon as I put him in there he freaked out, crying hysterical and I had to go in there and quiet him.  He was so tired, he went right to sleep but why would he all the sudden need me in there??

We had an absolutely horrible night last night.  He was up all night crying, (first time he woke was 10:30pm) I am not sure if it was OT or something was bothering him.  He had a stuffy nose all night and nothing seemed to help that usually does.

Problem is that, I work FT.  So, its really hard for me to tell my sitters what to do b/c I am not there and he is totally different for them than for me.  She said he can barely make it 3 hours A time, he is clingy and crying and rubbing his eyes most days begging for a nap, then he takes a good 1.5 hour nap there. :(

Also, does anyone have tips on the second part of my post.

I am so tired and so clueless here.  When he is with me his tired signs are impossible to read.  Seems like he can go and go but not at daycare.

Offline mjohnson33

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Re: how long do you allow fighting before you surrender nap??
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2012, 18:36:29 pm »
Also want to add, now we think he is sick after what happend last night.  The sitter tried to put him down this morning for a nap and he screamed bloody murder for an hour like something was hurting him and he was no doubt tired after the horrible night we had.  Then he only slept for less than an hour and woke up crying with yellow snot running down his face.  :( Calling the doctor in a bit.  We think it could be ears....

Offline choc

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Re: how long do you allow fighting before you surrender nap??
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2012, 19:07:03 pm »
Hi mjohnson33, I think I may have told you this on a previous thread but I'll say it again just incase!  Aidan was exactly the same as your LO when with his ChildMinder.  He would take lovely long naps with her after less than 3 hours A time!  I was baffled and a bit gutted to be honest!!  He only ever slept 30mins with me, even if I followed exactly what she did. 

Initially. before Christmas I decided to go for 1 nap, I felt I had no choice.  But he struggles with the long A time when he was with CM, and she wasn't too happy!  So I quit for a while and just put up with the shorts naps.
After Christmas I took 10 days off work and put him on 1 nap.  I did this to reset his body clock in time for going back to CM after the 10 days.  It worked and although he still has tired times/days he is more used to sleeping at lunch time and so handles it better, without being too grumpy etc.  Now CM is more than happy, as I did all the hard work and just gave him back to her with a reset (to a certain extent!) body clock.

I don't know if your LO is ready for the jump yet, I just wanted to give you some BTDT and an idea of how I got past the fact that he did 2 totally things for different people!
Gemma



Offline clairebear79

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Re: how long do you allow fighting before you surrender nap??
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2012, 21:14:48 pm »
oh bless him. Did you get to the docs?

I think if he is poorly you might have to put things on hold for a while & just let him sleep when he needs.

BT 8:20 (asleep at 8:30) but only with my help.  As soon as I put him in there he freaked out, crying hysterical and I had to go in there and quiet him.  He was so tired, he went right to sleep but why would he all the sudden need me in there??
Yesterday may well have been down to him feeling poorly hun so try not to focus on that too much.  However I think this pattern you are seeing of him struggling to settle at BT is like I said yesterday - he is tired out b/c his nights are short & his days are very long (even though he's having decent naps). But if he's not quite tired enough after his nap for BT he is likely to get very upset.  I know with my DS the only time we every get hysterical crying is when he's UT.

Problem is that, I work FT.  So, its really hard for me to tell my sitters what to do b/c I am not there and he is totally different for them than for me.  She said he can barely make it 3 hours A time, he is clingy and crying and rubbing his eyes most days begging for a nap, then he takes a good 1.5 hour nap there.
Having been in similar situation myself while I am at work, I totally understand.  It is so very hard to know what to tell other people to do when you are not there to see for yourself if he is tired.  And its especially hard at a time when their routines are changing.  I suspect though he is probably clingy & tired b/c he's OT from the short nights.  And if he's OT then he's quite likely only going to manage 3hrs A.

When he is with me his tired signs are impossible to read.  Seems like he can go and go but not at daycare.
As a toddler, my son's tired signs are also very hard to read.  He hardly ever yawns or rubs his eyes, & like your LO, he seems to go & go.  What I have learnt to look for though is him starting to charge around excitably even though he's already been up 5.5hrs - almost 'loop the loop', this is where he is switching from ok to overtired.  Its quite subtle to spot, & if I miss it he is always more difficult to settle.  I think what I'm trying to say is its very hard to just follow toddler's tired cues b/c they are often not reliable. 

So IMO rather than relying solely on cues you might be better to pick an A time & stick to it every day.  And ask the sitters to do the same.  This will then bring more consistency to your days & help him get used to going down for a nap after a certain amount of A time.  And it will also help you spot when/where he needs an A time increase.

I still think the only way you are going to get him out of this OT loop is to cap that PM nap & bring his bedtime earlier.  He needs to be given a chance to catch up on some sleep at night and the only way to do this is by shortening his day.  This is sooo important & is crucial to helping you to work towards the eventual goal of 1 nap.

WRT this:

He starts out in his crib and then ends up in my bed after a few wakes...I eventually would like to break this habit, coming into my bed and move his crib in his own room but not sure how to tackle it and I do believe I have to wait until his stomach issues are resolved right??
How long has he been coming into your bed during the night for?  If he has already grown accustomed to sleeping in your bed, this could well be the cause of some of his NW's - b/c its what he's now used to to help him get back to sleep IYSWIM?

Usually it is not recommended to start sleep training while they are unwell, and I know you have ongoing stomach issues & possible allergies/intolerances etc so of course this makes things more tricky.  I actually suspect your night wakes may improve if you start to work on his daytime routine though.  So IIWM I would work on that first, and then see what result it has on your nights. 

If he is continuing to wake at night, even after the routine has been addressed, ask yourself is he waking bc he is in pain, or is it b/c he wants to be in your bed? If its the latter then you can look at a sleep training method to help him to settle in his crib rather than in your bed.  Perhaps a more gentle approach eg GW might be more suitable given his health issues.  I'm not the best person to advise on any of the toddler sleep training techniques TBH, as I've never had to use them, so as & when you have eliminated routine as the cause, please do ask for some more help/support with that on the boards.

HTHxx

Offline mjohnson33

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Re: how long do you allow fighting before you surrender nap??
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2012, 21:23:15 pm »
Thanks so much clairbear! He has an appt in a few mins w his pedi. I will let u know what they say.

Can u give me an example of a routine I should try??

He has been coming to my bed since birth but up until 6 months only slept w me. I then started him in his crib and if he woke would come to my bed.

I will update after his apt. Xo
« Last Edit: February 02, 2012, 15:48:06 pm by mjohnson33 »

Offline mjohnson33

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Re: how long do you allow fighting before you surrender nap??
« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2012, 16:28:20 pm »
Ok, I am updated since DS appointment.  Well looks like the bad nights were due to an ear infection and a sinus infection.  Poor little guy!!  He is on antibiotics now for 10 days.  Yesterday he only slept a total of 15 minutes in the am and then 1:20 in the pm and had a ton of A time, wasnt happy A time but regardless.....he slept so much better last night.  I am sure he was so exhausted!  I also gave him some ibuprofen before bed and that may have helped too.  He went to bed around 8pm, did wake a few times before 10pm then I just brought him in bed with me since he really doesnt feel good.  But he slept way better than he has for the past few nights. 

So, I guess my endeavor is on hold for the time being.  LOL But any input you have as to how to tackle (routine examples) once he is better would be greatly appreciated! :)

Offline mjohnson33

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Re: nearing 2-1 transition, long days, short nights.
« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2012, 14:29:49 pm »
Also, so for now, do I just let him sleep when he's tired until he feels better??  I just wish I could figure all this out.

Offline clairebear79

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Re: nearing 2-1 transition, long days, short nights.
« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2012, 14:40:46 pm »
Oh bless him hun.  I'm really glad he slept better for you the other night & hope that this gives you more confidence that he does indeed need his DT sleep cutting back a bit (though probably not so short as that).  Hope that today he is feeling a  bit brighter since he's started with some antibiotics?

As for what you do while he is poorly - definitely don't keep him up if he's looking tired, & for his morning nap I would let him sleep as long as he wants, but I would still be a bit wary of letting him have a monster nap at tea time, b/c you don't want him refusing/resisting his BT esp if he is poorly, nor do you want repeated NW's or EW.  So if he does go down at tea time IIWM I would limit it to an hour which should be enough to keep him going. 

But this is of course based on my experience with my LO who even when poorly refused a PM nap.  Everyone said let him sleep & so he napped 9.30-11am which was when he wanted to go down, & then he refused point blank to nap at all in the PM & I tried & tried in the cot, car, pushchair you name it, so after a 7hr A to 6pm EBT he was a bit of a mess!  So I keep that with me!  Of course you have to ultimately do what you think is best & try & go with the flow until he's better & then you can get back to routine.

I'll pop back later with some routine examples for you - gotta go walk my sleeping baby now or he won't be tired enough for bed tonight!




Offline mjohnson33

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Re: nearing 2-1 transition, long days, short nights.
« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2012, 15:41:55 pm »
Thanks clairebear,
Here was his yesterday:
WU 7:30
nap 1 11:15-12:55
nap 2 4:15-5:45
BT 8:45 but I had to sit in there with him and rock the bed until 9:10 b/c if I just let him figure it out it would have taken forever before he goes to sleep.

Then he woke at 6:20am today!!! OMG!!!!  UT I suspect?

Also, I hate waking him from his naps b/c he is a bear afterwards...should I continue to do so even though he is sick?? Or should I just do extra A time before bed until he feels better.  Luckily I only have one more day of this until the weekend when I am going to try one nap I think and then just a small car ride nap.  I wish I could be a stay at home mom!!! :(

He is having trouble going to sleep on his own now too since getting sick.  Is it ok to help him right now?? Or will this cause him to get dependent on assistance.  Before he got sick he was doing great going down on his own.....is this a combo of making sure he has a long enough A time too?? Today when he woke at 6:20, my mom just went to put him down at 10:15 and had to pat him that was almost 4 hours A time for a sick baby.....he was very cranky and she knew he was tired......is it just b/c he doesnt feel good?? Last night I had to hold him all night from 6-8:30 pm.....I just dont want to create a habit.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2012, 16:19:36 pm by mjohnson33 »

Offline clairebear79

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Re: nearing 2-1 transition, long days, short nights.
« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2012, 20:15:08 pm »
UT I suspect?
Yes I would say so with that big a nap at that time of the day.

WRT waking him - I know its difficult esp when they are grouchy afterwards but the way I see it - this issue isn't going to resolve quickly unless you do.  I think if that PM nap gets shorter then when you wake him you can offer him his tea & hopefully this will help distract him & perk him up.  As for while he's poorly - that decision is entirely yours, but as I said earlier, what you don't want happening is what you got last night/this morning.  So IIWM I'd let him have a CN, but limit it so he's ready for bed.

WRT to needing to help him to sleep -  I don't think there is anything wrong in comforting him if he is distressed b/c he's poorly - there's been times I've gone to comfort DS during the night when he was poorly & he's fallen asleep on me & I've popped him back in bed & we've never had any issue with him getting dependent on me.  In fact for the last 2 nights my DS has also been poorly & he's sat on my knee for 2hrs before bed cuddling me, but he's still settled to sleep ok. Comforting him short term while he is poorly is IMO not likely to create a habit, and even if it did, there is ways of dealing with that.  Do what your heart tells you.

I do think that a lot of the trouble you are having at BT is most likely to be b/c he's UT though.  IME with my DS if he's hugely UT he will cry/scream & it would be very difficult to settle him b/c he is simply not tired enough to sleep.  So I do think that if you can get the right routine going then this issue will hopefully resolve itself.

As for trying one nap - IIWM I would see how he is feeling first & if he's still poorly at the weekend I'd probably hold back.  I think its where you are headed, and you are getting close b/c his nap is almost at lunchtime already, but really, to make the switch to 1 nap your DS needs to be able to consistently handle around 4.5-5hrs A either side of his nap which is quite a big jump from where he's at now.  IIWM I would just work on shortening that PM nap, getting some longer nights, and then gradually shift that AM nap later by 15mins at a time so he's consistently doing 4hrs A, then 4.5hrs & hopefully then the PM catnap will be so short & so late that it can be dropped altogether & replaced with an earlier BT.

HTH.xx

Offline mjohnson33

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Re: nearing 2-1 transition, long days, short nights.
« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2012, 20:28:57 pm »
Ok, thanks so much!! I will do what I can to manage for now.  Like I mentioned before, he can make really long A times with me on the weekends but when he's with the sitter he cant.....its so wierd....I know its because he is more stimulated there and tires out quicker.  He does nap fine there on the shorter A times, its only the BT issues I deal with on the weeknights.  So we will just have to play it by ear until he feels better for now I guess. 

The problem right now is the 2 naps are 2 much and the one is too little.  KWIM?  If I try to keep him up for 4.5 hours A time he would be fine but the nap I worry wouldnt be long enough to make it to BT.  Like if he woke at 7:30 his nap would be at 12 and if he napped 2 hours it would only make it 2.  So 4.5 hours from that is only 6:30 and he normally goes to bed around 8 and I wouldnt dare put him to bed at 6:30, he would be up at 5:30 am!!! :(