Short A time creating problems?

[BeckJan]

Hi there!
I'm new to the whole forum thing, so I hope I'm posting this in the right place, etc! Feel free to point me in the right direction if I'm off topic!

My DD is 11weeks old, and we think she's ready to be on a 4 hour feed schedule, based on how often she gets hungry (she won't eat earlier than 4 hours). We've just started implementing a flexible routine, having read Babywise, and like that philosophy better than a strict, time based routine. We're doing a dream feed at about 111pm, and she'll either STTN til 7, or wake once at 3 or 4. She's exclusively breast fed, and has always been a good feeder, very efficient, often done in 5-10 mins.

We're just a bit confused by the fact that she can only sustain 45-60 mins of total A time (including her feed time), sometimes 1 hr and 10 mins, but not often! That seems REALLY short for a 4 hour schedule, or even for an 11week old.

Any advice?!
Thanks,
Janna

[amayzie]

Hi Janna,  Posted in the right place first go!! YAY!! (It can be tricky getting to know where to post stuff sometimes!)

BW Also suggests a flexible schedule rather than a time based routine, and reading your baby's cues. It can be so easy for your LO to not fit the mould of a time based routine- and then your whole day is off! What settling techniques have you been using so far to help your LO learn to go to sleep independently?

Have you been using an EASY routine- eat, activity, sleep? If you are and feeding your LO as soon as she wakes then you might find that a 3 hour easy works better as far as the whole routine- in that 1 hour A time is too short for a 4 hour schedule! I found my guy would eat every 4 hours early on (and sleep the rest of the time), but then after a few weeks was ready for a 3 hour schedule- once he started sleeping less and getting more active!

How are her naps going? Are they still at least 1.5 hours? If they are then you are probably good to keep with that A time- but if she has started to shorten the naps you might need to look at extending the A times. The A times, and extending them are how we manage to have our LOs on a 3 hour schedule, and eventually a 4 hour one- without expecting them to sleep for 3 hours out of 4 for ever!!

Here's a post about A times and how they relate to your EASY

http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=128419.0

If you want to post your EASY also if you are concerned and want some ideas about if her routine needs a tweak? You post that like the following:

E: 7.00
A: 7:00-8:00
S: 8:00-10:00

and so on- put the whole day down the page.

Let me know!

[BeckJan]

Hi Katy,
Thanks so much for replying! It's just nice to not feel isolated in trying to work this out!

We do have her on an Eat Activity Sleep routine, but her sleeping is causing problems, and I've wondered if this is contributing to her A time. I had wondered if she should be on a 3 hour routine, but she won't eat at 3 hours... Just fights me and screams if I try to put her on the breast. She was only eating for 3-5 mins at a time when we did feed her at 3.5 hours, and then after a day of that she wouldn't eat at 3.5 hours either... Hence the move to a 4 hour feeding routine, which works well for feeding, but I don't think she's ready for a 4 hour routine from a sleep or activity perspective.

We don't have a typical day routine at present. She eats at 4 hours 7,11,3 & 7). She then stays awake for an hour, and then sleeps for 45 mins. She can take up to 45 mIns to resettle at that point, usually just with a paci. Shhhing and patting just wakes her up, and she focuses on me, not on sleep! If she resettles, she can do another 45 mins of sleeping, at which point we go thru the resettling again. At this point, after 3 days of this, I've just been getting her up at the 45 min mark, because I'm not coping with the frustration of resettling, especially since I know I'll inky be getting her to do another 45 mins of sleep anyway.

I'm pretty over it, and struggling to deal with a really grizzly baby that comes when she only sleeps for 45 mins at a time. I think the 45 min sleeps are resulting in her inability to do a decent awake time.

Not sure if any if this info helps, but I'm grateful for any advice.
J

[amayzie]

I'm going to ask if any of the BF ladies can have a look at your eating issues- BUT you are going to have to start pushing up her A time. Babies can get used to being awake for a certain period of time, and then start to show tired signs- and you being an in tune, attentive and in touch mummy sweep her off to bed! This is what my guy would do, and around the age your LO is started short napping. The 45 minute nap is an undertired nap- in that they ere tired enough to go to sleep for you, but not tired enough to sleep for more than 45 minutes. Then it can lead to what we call and undertired (UT) / overtired (OT) loop, where they aren't tired enough to stay asleep for more than 45 mins, and then they are too tired to stay awake for any more than an hour after that!! This can lead to a very OT baby at the end of the day!!

The fact that your LO is really hard to resettle at the 45 minute mark suggests that she's not tired enough- and i'd get her up and start another A time. In 4 months of trying to esettle i think my guy resettled twice- and it really just had me stressing out and watching the clock every single nap hoping THIS would be the nap he slept for more than 40 minutes!!

So what you need to do is to push up her A time slowly- so aim for around 1 hour 15 mins or so- and increase it from the hour you are on- to the extra 15 mins by 5-10 minutes every couple of days. If you go any faster the babies aren't used to it and you'll get a 30 minute over tired nap (they can be sensitive at this age!).

The first time i pushed my guy's A time he HATED IT!! After that it was much easier (i had to do it every 6 weeks or so). The extra time doesn't have to be doing much- just as long as she's awake- so a walk around the garden is good, a tour of the house, a story, or even 'helping' mummy on the computer... something not too stimulating or taxing. You should be able to find a 'magic' amount of time that suits your LO to allow her to stay asleep for more like 1.5 plus hours.

Also- i did some googling about 'babywise' as i hadn't heard of it before. It seems to suggest using cry it out or methods similar to controlled crying for teaching your baby to sleep independantly... these methods are really not appropriate for teaching sleep to babies as they can feel abandoned. The other ideas in the book may be good, as far as what you've mentioned to do with a flexible routine, but gentler settling methods may be more appropriate. Here are a couple of links with information on CIO:

http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=211289.0
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=224729.0
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=222275.0

Also a link on sleep training with a little bub!
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=26672.0

Let me know how it goes!! Extending A times and sleep training is hard- but worth it!!

[Erin M]

From the bf perspective really all you can do is go into a EASAE routine -- it's hard to force a baby to eat when they don't want to.  I second Katy's suggestion of stretching A time (and also acknowledge that it can be hard in the beginning).

[Kgraphicdesign]

Sounds like my problem with my 11wo! My problem is I dont know if he is under tired or overtired. His awake times can vary from 1hr 10m to 1h 40m with no consistent nap time after each. I get one 2hr nap but it seems the rest (4 including catnap) are now trending to one hour. he might show his tired signs at one hour or earlier, or not until over an hour and a half. I used to go by his yawns but those are fewer and fewer. Mostly the red tired eyes and the nuzzling.

He is more hungry at night (would heat every two hours if he had his way) but sometimes I have to offer feeds before he is hungry during the day just so I don't miss one.

Be interested to know if my lo is also under tired or if he is over tired. It's so hard to tell!

Note: awake time is usually just after 6am and we are trying for a 6pm bedtime as he did really well the time we put him down super early. Normal bed is 6:30-7.

[BeckJan]

Thank you do much, Katy & Erin! I'll try stretching her awake times tomorrow, and see how we go. I
might also try bringing her back to a 3.5 hour routine, just to try and get her rhythm back into the Eat Play Sleep. I'll keep you posted.
Again, I really appreciate the support. I'll look up those sites too!
J x

[BeckJan]

Well, it's early days, but I stretched her A time this morning from 10 hr total to 1 hr and 15 mins, and we're now on almost an hour and a half and she's slept AND resettled! Even if she still takes a few days to get the hang of it (or if I take a few days to get the hang of it!), I'm THRILLED! I was really starting to get fragile over trying to help her sleep properly - this has made a world of difference to me today. Thank you!

[Erin M]

Glad to hear it!  Keep at it!

[amayzie]

I was really starting to get fragile over trying to help her sleep properly

Oh- we have ALL been there!! So glad to hear it!!

[BeckJan]

Hi Ladies, just an update. I had a great day on Tues, and then some rotten days. There have been lots of tears, and lOts of feeling like I can't do it. Then today I had a better day. She seems to be better when I'm with other people... I think I'm calmer and she's more used to my 'conversationsl' tone, rather than the cute voice I tend to use with her.
Anyway, the stretching is working, she's taken to it really well, I'm so proud of her! I wanted to post here, to encourage other mums in what I only just realised... That looking for the small victories (in my case, longer awake times), not just the negatives (few changes to her naps). I think, too, as many others have said, change comes slowly.
At the moment, I'm just thrilled to have 2 good days in a week. It isn't good yet, and nor am I, but a good day and a change of perspective does wonders.
I hope this is some encouragement to other mum's who are struggling.

[Erin M]

That's good news!  Well done you, for sticking with it!