Wouldn't take CN and had 4.5 hr A time before bed today! Yikes! 5.5 months old.

[jennfl]

I am just at a loss.  Such a roller coaster with naps. 

Today's first two naps went well(ish).

First, he slept 12 hours STTN.

1st nap was after only 1hr 55 min of A time because he was showing lots of tired signs.  He fell asleep fast, but woke at 45 mins and fussed/rolled/talked for 15 mins and , and went back to sleep for 30 mins. Total sleep time of 1 hr 15 mins.

2nd nap was after 2 hrs 10 min of A time.  He fell asleep after fussing for 8 mins, woke at 32 min mark for 5 mins of light fuss then back to sleep for 45 mins.  Total sleep time of about 1 hr 15 min again.

Last CN our nanny attempted (husband leaves for work and I'm coming home from work) little gap in between.  She's been giving him this last nap for over a month now 2-3 times a week, so he's used to her.  She started it after A time of about 2hrs and 15 mins.  When I got home she said he'd been talking/rolling for 20 mins so she got him up.  I tried to immediately put him down after doing a quick wind down of singing like usual.  At this point he'd been awake for almost 3 hours.  He WOULD NOT go to sleep.  Rolled and fussed and then cried for the last 5 mins (after being in there for 20 mins), so I got him up.

It was almost 5pm at this time so I decided to feed him a little early and do an EBT.  He was asleep at 6pm without any problems, but had been awake for 4.5 hours!  He was in a fine mood the whole time from when I got him out of the crib before 5 until I put him down at 6.  Zero Crying.

I am thinking that I definitely need to increase the A times.  We did this and it went well for 3-4 days, and then had 1-2 bad days with 30 min wakeups, and now today with no CN.

His night sleep is long and consolidated.  I need to figure out his A times. 

1.  Do I increase all three A times by a few mins all at the same time? 
2.  Is he stuck in a younger daytime nap cycle where he shows tired signs after short A times?  This morning he was cranky, rubbing eyes, yawning, after only 1.5 hrs of A time.  That's why I put him down before 2 hrs.

He's now 5 months and 2 weeks old.

Thank you for any help!

[creations]

Hi
It sounds like you can increase the A time and start moving towards dropping the CN.  The CN is dropped around 6 months (of course all LOs are different) and there can be some no CN days and some still with a CN whilst you all get settled into a new routine.  During that time you might find EBT is helpful.

Sleepy signs at this age can be confusing because they show the same signs if they are bored or want a change of scene.  Maybe just change the activity, sing a song, move to a different room etc.  And just to really confuse you they can also show sleepy signs and appear very tired and ready to sleep if they are OS (too many different activities or new toys, visitors etc) so it is important to consider what has come before the sleepy signs when decided what to do next, and also watching the clock and working towards a consistent A time that is suitable for his age too.  Add to that, their body clocks can be telling them a nap time is approaching so they start to show sleepy signs when really they are not fully tired enough to get a good nap.
Extending the A time should be done gradually to give the body clock time to adjust to it.

http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=64158.0
You'd be looking at a guidance of around 2hrs 15 to 2hrs 30 for his age.

So, I think that some of his A times do look quite short.  I would increase by 10 or 15 mins (gently, low key activity to just delay that sleep without making him upset) hold there for 2-3 days then increase again, hold for 2-3 days etc, until you reach around 2hrs 15.  If he appears to be able to take a bit more than 15 mins then it's ok to go a little quicker with the increase, some handle it well.
I would increase the first A which looks short, leave the second one at 2hr 10 if this is what you usually have, whilst the first A time catches up iyswim.
The increase A time should help get a longer nap and will space those two naps across the day more evenly and eventually over the next few weeks the CN won't be needed so CN refusal won't be an issue for much longer.

Hope this helps some.

[jennfl]

Thank you so much! 

After putting him down for the night last night at 6pm he was awake for the day at 5:15am.  This night sleep duration I can't figure out either.  He did get a good 11 hours, but some nights he'll do 11 hrs some 10hrs 50 mins, and then some 11.5 hrs, and here and there 12 hrs.  Is this normal?  I was thinking they usually slept about the same amount at night.  Or is that not until much later?

So, I put him down at 7:30 am and he didn't fuss at all.  He did sleep for 2 hours, but, he woke briefly at 30 mins and shuffled for 5 mins.  No fuss at all.

So, now that he woke at 9:30, should I try to start everything for the next nap after 2 hrs and 10 min or increase that a little bit too?  The two hour nap may buy him a bit more awake time I'm thinking.  Was going to shoot for trying around 2hrs 20 mins.  Would that be too much?

Also, how much total sleep should he be getting at this age?  I've read so many different things on that. 

Is it possible that for his night sleep he is ahead of the game for his age, and for naps he's a little behind the game, and the two are just now meshing together yet?  I guess I mean with his inability to stay awake for more than 2.5 hours at his age, and then adding to it the short naps.

I was also thinking that right now he's at about 13 hrs 10 mins total sleep since last night and first nap.  He usually will get about 14-14.5 hrs in a 24 hour period.  So should I allow a short second nap?  Just not try to extend it, but get him up if he wakes at 30ish mins?

Sorry for all of my crazy questions.  You are very helpful.

[jennfl]

I meant to say above that the two are just "not" meshing yet, instead of "now" meshing.

[creations]

Was going to shoot for trying around 2hrs 20 mins.

Sounds fine.  It's what works for your LO that counts, the guidance times are only guidance.

Also, how much total sleep should he be getting at this age?

15 - 18 hrs total
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=85134.0

I guess I mean with his inability to stay awake for more than 2.5 hours at his age, and then adding to it the short naps.

This is very normal.  See my earlier response.  At this age 2hr 15 to 2hr 30 A time is the guidance.  It's also pretty common for LOs to short nap between say 4 and 6 months too.

At this age you'd be aiming for two long naps (see the link) so if you can get two good naps then go for it.  If you can't then that's what you are aiming for.

hth

[jennfl]

Thank you again.  I guess I have one last question.  How do EWs play into all of this?  I cannot determine what causes his EWs.  Sometimes he will sleep until 7(not too often)..Mostly between 6-6:30 and sometimes before 6. 

When he wakes so early, has short naps, and can only stay up for 2.5hrs at a time, it's almost impossible to not have the CN.  Not that I'm in a rush to get rid of it, but if he starts refusing it, then I'm up a creek.

Is it normal to have a 4 hr wake time before bed at this age if the CN is not taken, and BT is 6pm?

[creations]

Is it normal to have a 4 hr wake time before bed at this age

I wouldn't say 'normal' but some things can't be avoided.  If the CN is refused then it's refused and there's only so early you can do an EBT.  You could try APing the CN?  It doesn't really matter if this one gets an AP habit as you'll drop is in a while any way and the independent sleep habit will remain on the other naps.

EWs can't help on that sorry.  My LO only slept around 10.5 to 11 hrs per night for a year.  I know only too well what 4.30am and 5am looks like.  I did manage once to shift his whole day an hour (day light savings change over), it took about a week of hard pushing the A time and bracing myself for massive OT to get us there but at that point we had a more regular 5.30 morning WU time and there was NO WAY I was going to let it become a regular 4.30 WU!  He never ever resettled after his morning WU so I didn't have much to lose with the hard pushing of the A time and the OT risk.

[jennfl]

Thank you for your input.  What is APing?  I've thought to maybe put him in the car for this last nap and even get him 20 mins of sleep which would help.  May try that at some point.

Last night he again went over 4 hours until bed time.   Our nanny was with him again and said that he in no way seemed tired so she didn't try for a nap. After thinking about it, I think it may be best to try and avoid the CN if we can to see if he adjusts in the next few days.  We had him in bed early again, by 6:20.  Would have been earlier, but he had a big burp and spit up in the crib and cried so had to hold him for a couple of mins to let it settle.

This morning he was up at 5:10 am.  He was so quiet and just moving around a little, but awake.  So at 6 am I kept everything dark, fed him a smaller bottle, and laid him back down.  He slept from 6:25-7:25 (I had to go in and open blinds to wake him at 7:25), I didn't want him sleeping too late, just wanted him to catch up on night sleep. 

So today, he's down for his first nap at 9:25, 2 hours after WU.  He was really tired for this nap and I kept trying to keep him up walking around, but he was ready and was out in 5 seconds when I laid him down.  I think that hour of being awake and then just getting one more hour of sleep when I put him down earlier wasn't enough to buy him anymore time.  Keeping my fingers crossed!

Thank you again for all of your help!

[creations]

What is APing?

abbreviation for Accidental Parenting.  Basically the things that Tracy warned us against in the BW books.  You'll often see it on the forums as AP or APOP (accidental parenting On Purpose - because we know we are doing it so it is not really an accident) it's very useful if you have a very OT LO or a nap refusal so you can avoid chronic OT building over time.  By AP we mean anything like sleeping in arms on the sofa, rocking to sleep, putting LO to sleep in their rocker or pram.

I've thought to maybe put him in the car for this last nap and even get him 20 mins of sleep which would help

Yes exactly this.

When dropping the CN you might find he needs it every other day or once a week to begin with, you don't have to be too strict about 'not allowing' it at the start.  But like I said, pushing those A times to spread the other 2 naps is the key here.

Good luck with it.
let us know how you get on xx

[jennfl]

Oh.  Thanks for that.  I remember reading about accidental parenting.  The phrase "start as you mean to go on" is probably the best advice I have ever read.  But I see how you need to do whatever works sometimes.

Today was better!  Only 3 hrs and 30 mins of A time before bed time.  Asleep at 6:25pm!  I'd like to get it right at 3 hrs or just under.  His first nap was an hour and 22 mins without any waking in the middle.  Right at 2hrs of awake time before that nap.  His second nap was 1 hr 20 mins, but he woke at 30 mins and played with his pants for 10 mins and went back to sleep.  His awake time was 2 hrs 45 mins before this one.  Maybe take that back down a bit?  2 hrs 30 mins?  He shuffled in the crib with no crying for 5 mins when I put him down at first.

Gosh I'm hoping this sticks!  Thank you for all of the support and help.

[creations]

That second nap might have been UT, it's sounds like he was happy which generally indicates UT.  I don't think I'd reduce the A, maybe stick with the same A for another couple days.  If he was OT he will get used to it in a few days, if he was UT it will still be too short but reducing won't help.
It's usually better to judge after a few days and one day of A time change can give misleading results.

The thing with AP is that if your LO is poorly or teething you will give a lot more attention and soothing any way, maybe having have him sleep in arms etc, it's hard to avoid this totally in a baby's life as they do need lots of cuddles when they are poorly.  I've found this has never ruined DS's ability to sleep independently and if it does with some LO's then it's reasonably short process of gradual weaning to get back on track.

[jennfl]

Again, thank you.

He woke this morning at 6:40 am, and with a little encouraging.  He was moving around but not quite awake so I opened his blinds because he had already been asleep for 12 hrs and 10 mins, and he usually won't sleep a ton during the day when he's slept that much at night. 

So his first nap was after 2 hrs and 10 mins of A time and he slept exactly one hour uninterrupted.  I almost predicted that based on how much he slept last night.

So this next nap I should still keep him awake for 2 hrs and 45 mins?  That's on the high end for his age, right?  Or higher than most?  Again, I know it's only a guide.  He tolerated it very well yesterday.  I'll give it a shot again today and see what happens.

It seems that he slept in later, past that 5ish am mark today after his awake time before BT was less last night.  He wasn't OT I guess and was able to sleep better.

Never ending!  Today, I'm going to try a short CN either in the car or in his crib if the time until BT is too long.  Hate to do it, but we'll see.

Oh, and I can't get him to sleep in my arms.  He hasn't done that in months.  I think he would do it if he were OT and past the brink of going to sleep on his own, just never tried it.  It's all about experimenting too, I guess.

I appreciate all of your quick replies and help.  Thanks again!!!!!!!!!

[creations]

So this next nap I should still keep him awake for 2 hrs and 45 mins?  That's on the high end for his age, right?

It is high yes but some LOs do need high A times, even above the guidance.  I cannot guarantee this is the right A time for him of course.  So many people are so fearful of OT that they keep their LO UT which causes OT by BT as you already know.  I prefer a bit of OT myself but my DS copes very well with it and will go to sleep really quickly where as UT he'll get very upset and eventually so will I!

Oh, and I can't get him to sleep in my arms.

Sounds like my LO!  He wouldn't sleep in arms or in the pram.  He did however sleep in the car.
There was a time when he was very very poorly and I felt I had no option but to keep hold of him, whilst he screamed as I couldn't bare the thought of him being in his cot screaming and thinking I wasn't with him.  It was pretty awful and eventually he passed out on me.  Since then if I work REALLY hard at it (30mins of a certain CD of music plus me singing plus dancing and rocking!  It is exhausting!) and if he is teething badly or has a virus I can get him to nod off in my arms, although he will sleep restlessly.
So you never know your LO might one day sleep in your arms when he is older.

Let me say, I have night time sleep envy!  My LO didn't sleep a full 12 hours until he was a year old, for his first year it was 10.5 -11hrs per night and always early mornings and a struggle to reach BT.

[jennfl]

I think I am definitely one of those afraid of OT.  It's liberating somewhat lately to keep him up later.  He seems to be responding well to almost 3 hrs of A time.

We'll see how it goes! 

Thank you thank you thank you!!

[jennfl]

Hi Creations.  Just a quick question if you happen to see this message.

Today Noah had two naps for 1 hr 10 mins each.  His first A time this morning was 2hrs 10 mins and his second A time was 2 hrs 55 mins.  Took only 1-2 mins to settle and fall asleep and had zero awakening at the 30ish min mark.  I would have thought his second nap would be a bit longer, maybe 1 1/2 hrs.  It was yesterday with about 2hrs and 45 min of A time.

So we are doing a CN today.  He did seem pretty tired after only 2 hrs and 15 min before this one.  Took him 10 min to settle, but only scooting and mild grunting.  Zero fuss.

Any thoughts?  Or are we just in the weird "in between stage?"