Multiple NWs for more than 3 mo - sorry, long!!!

[Tecike]

Hi all!
So, V is 7.5 mo. Since the 4 mo GS nights are rubbish. I'm desperate to get some help as I think I have tried everything I can think of. V has about 6-7 NWs every night for 3.5 mo now. He had two 5 hr stretches in these 3 months, but that's all. He had some constipation issues when we started solids, but it seems to be fine now. Looking back it seems like there always could be an excuse for NWs, but I'm very tired by now, so I have to ask for help. He started with GSs, then sore tummy and reflux kept waking him, then increased mobility and WWs... I'm tired of excuses and I need my sleep back!
Right now he wakes around every 2 hrs. I try to resettle in crib, but never manage so I pick him up for a few mins and put him back. There are times when this is enough, but sometimes he keeps waking every 15 mins, so I PU and PD every time. He is BF, and has 2 NFs (10ish and 2ish right now). He is up for the day at 6 am. Our routine has been OK, naps are inconsistent still - probably depending on nights. Basically I have 2 types of routine - the short nap days:
E - 6 am,
S - 8.30 - 9.30/ 10.00 (I know  A time should be more, but he's not a morning person, this one is the shortest)
A - soilds after WU 10.15
E - BF 11.00
S - 12ish (if we go out to run errands) - 12.30
A - solids 13.30
E - BF 15.00
S - not later than 16.00- 16.30
A- solids 17ish, BT 6.30 ish
E - BF 19.00
S- 19.30 (usually settles by 20.00)
After this he wakes 10 pm-ish, where I BF in hope he'd sleep longer, but no, he wakes 12ish, 2ish, 4ish and up at 6 am.

And the long nap days - are mostly the same, but we don't go out, so he doesn't nap in stroller. And than he might sleep longer around 13ish - 14.30. Then he doesn't have another nap, but I bring BT earlier, so he's down by 6 / 6.30 pm. Well after this, he usually is up every hour until midnight and then every 2 until morning. I know that some of the problems are caused by the transition from 3-2 naps. I tried all scenarios - shorter A time before BT: he didn't settle for like 2 hrs, and waited until the usual A time. Longer A time before BT - he got OT and was up at every sleep cycle. and then he sometimes surprises me with a short am nap, so whole routine is off...
He goes down independently for naps and BT, but doesn't seem to be able to resettle at night. As he had discomfort so many times, I think he got used to picking up, and I might even rush in to pick him up as I never know what it is that wakes him - reflux, tummy, gases...

I am at a loss, don't know anymore where to go from here...and I probably can't think of clever things as I'm so sleep deprived. 

If I forgot to mention some important info, please feel free to ask!

[*Becky*]

Tecike - so many hugs...
2 things come to mind when I am reading this...
1. You mention reflux. Is he medicated for this?? It does sound like there is some discomfort there.

2. On the short nap days he must be way OT. Up at 6am and then 3 30 min naps and not asleep until 8pm. That is a long long day. My M does rubbish naps but we do try very hard to stick to a 2 hour day max.
What do you think??

[londonlady]

You didn't mention any props that might be getting in the way of him resettling so I'd agree with Becky. It does sound like OT and discomfort rather than a problem with independent sleep.

What is he doing when he wakes? Is it an urgent "need you now" cry or fussing / moaning?

Re: your A times - we work on 2.5hrs A time in the morning too, so I wouldn't worry that it's too short, if you're getting a decent nap from it then just go with it. Then we aim for about 2.75-3hrs A time for the 2nd one, with a nap about 1.45/2pm that can be anywhere between 1-2 hours depending on whether I'm doing the school run and have to wake her.  That leaves us about 3.5hrs to BT which she can cope with ok.

Is it possible to have a couple of days at home to try and work on the OT, just let him get really well rested with good naps. Then you can see if the frequency of the NWs change?

Rach. x

[Tecike]

Becky, his reflux isn't medicated as in Serbia they don't recognize it as a condition that needs medication. I've been doing everything I can to relieve reflux...I had to hold him for sleep for more than 3 months and I think this created the only prop we have - picking up. When I was sleep training him I included holding him into the WD, so this made the transition to the crib easier. His reflux now seems milder, he does spit up once or twice a day, but I see he's not in pain...
On short nap days, he still has one decent 1.5 hr nap either in the am or in the pm and on those days BT is at 6 pm, I don't stretch him till 8 pm. But even with 6 pm BT he tends to be up every hr or so until midnight. I'm not sure how to avoid this, I mean BT before 6 pm is a bit early, isn't it? And usually his third nap ends between 3 - 4 pm, so 6 pm BT seems reasonable for me... 

Rach, as I said I think picking up might be a prop now. He does have a dummy, but isn't dependent on it. 80% of the times he goes down without it and if I only replug, he doesn't settle. Usually when I pick him up, he ends up spitting it out, so I don't insist on it.
When he wakes at night he starts fussing and moaning, but he is wide awake the minute he opens his eyes and starts crawling around his crib. For 2 days now he even tries to stand up and when he can't he gets frustrated. I used to rush in to him because I thought if he woke too much it would be harder to resettle. As I got more tired, I let him fuss and crawl until he starts the real cry and then I pick him up, he calms down, I put down and he falls asleep. Recently there were a few occasions when he woke up every 15-20 mins after I put him down and we did the whole process again and again for about 1.5 hrs.

I aim for the same A times as you do. But sometimes he does a short nap after the second 3 hr A time, so that it gives a too long A time till BT and he has to take a third nap to push through BT. I did stay home with him for a week a month ago to catch up on sleep, but it was impossible to extend that second nap then. As I said, when he wakes, he's wide awake in a second and resisted extending every time I tried. Might give it a go again, though...

[londonlady]

We have the same trouble with the 2nd nap and nap extension. Maybe pull in that 2nd A time back to 2hr 45 and see if that helps...?

It really does sound like discomfort - it's so awful that you can't get medication for it... Is there anything you can buy over the counter at the pharmacy that might help? We are using infant gaviscon but it's prescription only... 

My friend in Australia decided not to medicate for her son's reflux and they went down a more naturopath route. I will have a look back through my emails and see what her advice was when I was chatting to her about it. I'll post anything that might be useful. xx

[MommyMoulton]

Does he wake to eat at 1900 ? Even though Bt was 630?

Really my only thought is it possible you are confusing his tired signs? E has higher a times, but I was wondering if maybe you could try feeding the solids before the nap maybe a fuller belly will help him sleep better.

Like try BF at 6am then breakfast exactly one hour later at 7am. Maybe it'll give him more energy to have a longer a time. I would say when he seems sleepy at 830 he might be tired but not full.

[Tecike]

MM, I wasn't clear in my first post, sorry. When he has a NF at 4ish, he often isn't hungry at WU, at 6, so I BF him before the nap and solids after. But when he doesn't have a NF, I BF him at 6 and solids at 7.30ish (I can't do it earlier, as in the morning I have to prepare O for kindy). He usually does a good morning nap, though, rarely it's short. At other naps I give solids before nap, and especially in the evening I put him down with a full belly. If I bring BT earlier, I bring all feeds earlier, BF and solids, too.

Yesterday was a strange day again. He went down for first nap at 8.45 and was up at 9.15 standing in his crib and looking very proud!  So, I pulled second A time shorter, 2.45, went for a stroll during A time, he was down for a nap at 12.00, up at 13.30. Which left a long time to BT and we were expecting guests. So, at first yawn, I put him down to nap at 15.45 (2.15 A time) and he did a 45er, so up at 16.30. Did a solid 3 hr A time, dinner at 18.15, BF at 19.15 and he was down by 19.30. I thought this was an OK day, he caught up with naps...but no, he was up at 22.00, 23.00 (fed in hope of some longer sleep), 24.00, 1.20, 2.30 (fed) and then he could sleep until 6. SO, clearly something is wrong...  I wish to drop the NFs, but every time I hold back, as with 6-7 NWs at least they are times when he settles back easily... 

My sister says it might be that my milk isn't nutricious enough, so he still might be hungry at night. What do you think? Should I some bottles of formula? Never did it before, so don't know how it would go. Or maybe more solids, less milk 

As for medicine...I don't know what to ask for over the counter, as probably the brand names are different here... 
I am interested in naturopath advice, if you can find it, Rach. TIA

[londonlady]

Do you have adult acid / heartburn medicine there? I would ask if there is a version suitable for infants basically. We have Gaviscon for adults here, and they do an infant version (although it works in an entirely different way.)  I'll have a look at what the main ingredient is and see if that helps any...

So I looked back at my friend's naturopath advice and unfortunately it was more relevant for small babies. It was basically about elevating the cot head end so that they aren't lying flat, lying on their left side (as lying on the right is worse for the acid refluxing) keeping them upright and still for 20 mins after each feed, no jiggling / bouncing after a feed. To be honest, most of this stuff is null and void in a very mobile 7.5m old... She also avoided dairy when BFing, and did other elimination but I know you've been losing weight so this might not be a good idea. 

I will see if I can  get in touch with her and see if her son still suffered later on and if there was further advice, but I think he settled down by about this time.

I guess what your SIL suggested about your milk is a possibility - you were saying you'd been struggling with your weight, but obviously it's a big decision to swap to formula... And not always the answer - if he does have acid reflux, formula can aggravate it sometimes so you'd need to choose the type carefully. Really all you can do is try if you're happy to do that.

Rach.x

[MommyMoulton]

We used a formula with Thickener it seems to help Es acid reflux and only recently did we take away the elevated mattress in his crib.

[londonlady]

Sofia is still slightly elevated, partly because it helps her not to climb up the cot too much in the night and get stuck!

The infant gaviscon ingredients are sodium alginate and magnesium alginate. Don't know if it might be any help to ask your pharmacist Tecike?

xx

[Tecike]

Thanks, Rach, I'll certainly ask the pharmacist. His cot is still elevated, didn't think taking away the elevation yet. Though I have a feeling reflux is not the issue now. I mean, he doesn't spit up ur burp at night, he has gases only. We're going to  the dr today, will ask about formula. At this age O was having four BFs a day, and V still has 6, so it might help. FX for it.

Last 2 nights were a disaster... 2 hrs after BT he was up, and then every hour, even after NFs. I'm constantly on the verge of crying when I get up to him. I'm losing it. Will send DH out of bedroom and try something else. I decided not to pick him up, unless doing a real cry. It will be hard, as he can go on with whining and moaning for quite a long time, but as we're already not sleeping, I feel he has to learn to resettle... The only thing I can't decide is whether to go to him and stand next to crib until he's whining and crawling around, or go there only when he starts crying? What would you do, ladies?

[Tecike]

Went to the dr yesterday, he's 7.7 kgs / 16.9 lbs - gained only 40 dkg / 0.5 lbs in 2 months. Dr said he might be hungry when I told her he has 3 meals and 6 BFs (including NFs) a day. So she said I should try supplementing with formula. At the pharmacy they didn't have formula with thickener, will arrive on Thursday, so I have to wait for it. And she told us I should give him vitamin B komplex and give him 5 meals and 3 BFs, plus formula in the evening.

He refused CN in the pm, so was up from 2-6 pm (as for 3 days in a row now). Total daytime sleep was 2.5 hrs and he was up 1.5 hrs after BT. Resettled him 3 times in 3 hrs, then decided to nurse him at 9 pm. And guess what, he slept till 1 am, fed him again and slept till 4 am, fed again, up at 5, seemed rested, but managed to go back to sleep with paci after 15 mins of happy crawling and went till 6.15!  Wow, I don't know whether more frequent nursing did the trick or he was just plain tired... If it was really hunger, I feel so guilty!  Like I was making him sleep, and all the while he was just hungry...

So now I just have to wait for the formula and see how he does with it! FX it will solve our troubles!

[londonlady]

Fingers crossed Tecike... Bet you're wishing the week away to get to Thursday. xxx