Too much daytime sleep?

[allm416]

My DD is 16 weeks now & we're on a 4 hour EASY for feeding as she goes very comfortably this amount of time between feeds. However her A times are more like 1hr 40 - 50 at the moment (I have tried extending them a bit but she's really not happy & we get lots of OT short naps). On this A time we are generally getting a total of 4 hours of sleep across the first 2 naps but then the last nap needs to be about 1 & a half hours to get us through to bedtime at 7 (wakes at 6am). 5.5 hours of sleep per day seems like a lot & I was wondering if this might be causing her EW at 5am (struggle to resettle her again until 6 but it can be done). How soon should I leave it before trying to extend her A times again? Anything else I can do? If I make her day a 12 hour day which would mean less daytime sleep this means a bedtime of 6pm which seems rather early? Would this result in even earlier mornings??
Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks

[creations]

Hi
Her total sleep time isn't excessive (5.5hrs + 10 or 11 = 15.5 or 16.5) so I wouldn't worry about that.
Also not all LOs can manage a 12 hr night (but wouldn't it be nice?) 10 hrs is also normal.
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=85130.0
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=87109.0
You might be able to shift some of that day sleep to night sleep though.  You could for example work on just increasing the first A of the day because when this comes too early they can use it to catch up what they missed at night, splitting the sleep in two.
Or as another option, you could cap the third nap, reducing it to a 45 min CN and when she wakes begin your bed time routine and put her down earlier.  Sometimes an earlier bed time will result in a later morning wake up.  If it didn't you could wait a little while for the new routine to settle in and then start to shift the whole day on gradually in the same way one would do it for Daylight savings change.
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=44509.0
Another option would be to try using W2S (wake to sleep) for that 5am wake up to see if you can trigger a new sleep cycle and make WU a little later.
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=223809.0
Do any of these sound like something you would like to try?

[allm416]

Well we're going to have to try early bedtime today as she woke from her CN after 45 minutes at 4.15. I put her to bed at 6 & she was asleep at 6.15 which is 45 minutes earlier than normal. Will wait & see what it does to her morning wake up. Fingers crossed she won't wake too early.
I have tried W2S on the 5am wake up but she ends up very fidgety for the rest of her sleep & it only makes about 15 mins difference to her wake up.
I also definitely want to try extending her first A of the day. It is currently her shortest with putting her down to sleep after 1 hr 30 (asleep by 1hr 40) but she is always yawning & showing tired signs way before this. When extending her A time I guess I just ignore any tired signs? I know from experience a couple of weeks back that this will give me OT naps. How long should I persevere with extending? Until I get longer naps?? I gave up after a week last time as the OT naps were making LO grizzly for the rest of the day.

[creations]

When extending her A time I guess I just ignore any tired signs?

To some extent yes but not so much that she gets upset.  Sounds like you need to go slowly with any extension, maybe just 5 or 10 mins then hold for 3 days then increase by 5 or 10 again and again hold for 3 days.  If she was getting OT naps before it 'might' have been jumping up the A too quickly, either too much time in one go or not holding at that A time for enough days for her to adjust before increasing again.  You will know how you increased last time so just go slower than that.
Otherwise you could keep things as they are (with the unpleasant early morning) for another few weeks and try then when she's that little bit older.  It may well be that this sleep pattern suits her really well.

[allm416]

Well it looks like the earlier bedtime helped. DD went to sleep at 6.15pm, had DF at 10 & slept through till 6.30am. Was very fidgety between 4 & 5 but didnt wake up. Seems that a 12 hour day suits her as long as she gets good naps in the day. A shame we started off today so badly. I usually put DD down to sleep at 1hr 35 ( asleep by 1 hr 45) but this morning she was yawning so much & started grizzling so put her down at 1hr 30 & we got an UT nap, woke up at 50 mins, managed to get her back to sleep but fully awake at 1 hour. Put her down for next nap at 1 hr 40 (a bit earlier than I normally would but she only had a short first nap) & she just woke after 35 minutes, have managed to extend the nap so here's hoping she stays down a good while.

[creations]

this morning she was yawning so much & started grizzling so put her down at 1hr 30 & we got an UT nap

It happens here too.  I'm sure even the 'best' routines go a little off track day to day.

Great night though!  Maybe worth capping the third nap at 45 min and getting the earlier BT.  If you get her settled into that routine you could then gradually shift the whole day like I suggested earlier.  I wouldn't do it too soon though.

[allm416]

The rest of today didn't go well. Typical, we had such a good day/night yesterday so finally thought we were getting somewhere. DD stayed down till one hour 40 for her second nap after taking 20 minutes to resettle when she woke at 35 minutes. Felt this was a good restorative nap (??) so gave her a full A time before 3rd nap but again woke at 30 mins suggesting she was OT. Managed to extend nap to 2 hours but she woke up several times. She sleeps on her tummy which I know is not recommended but she just screams & refuses to sleep on her back. So today she's learnt how to roll from her tummy to her back & does it everytime she wakes & then cant settle herself back to sleep. Any suggestions on this?
She took so long to settle tonight as well (kept lifting her head & looking round everywhere, think we're going to have t get black out blinds now she's going to bed whilst it's still light) that her A time ended up being 2 hrs 20 & then she woke at 8pm ( first time ever woken up before dream feed) & rolled onto her back. She's must be very OT & I think we're in for a rough night!
Oh for some consistency! Would love to be able to plan our days better by knowing roughly when she'll wake up & roughly when & for how long she'll nap.

[creations]

Can you post yesterday's EASY so I can take a look?

Developmental progress such as rolling does often disturb sleep.  The only thing you can really do is give lots of time to practice during A time (so limiting how much time is spent in a pram/car seat/high chair/walker/bouncer to what is absolutely necessary) so that she has less need to practice in the cot or at least learns to roll herself back into a comfortable position to sleep.

[allm416]

Here's our EASY from the past couple days:

Tuesday (good day):
Wake up - 6am
E - 6.15
A - 6.15 - 7.45
S - 7.45 - 9.20 (2 w/u at 35 & 50 mins, actual time asleep probably 1hr 20)
A - 9.20 - 10.45
E - 10.45 ( we were late getting back from an appointment so feed was late but she didn't mind)
A - 11.00 - 11.15
S - 11.15 - 1.40 (no w/u - allowed her longer due to shorter than usual 1st nap)
A - 1.40 - 2.20
E - 2.20
A - 2.35 - 3.30
S - 3.30 - 4.15
A - 4.15 - 5.45 (including bath)
E - 5.45
Bed - put down at 6.15, asleep at 6.30
E - 10pm dream feed & nappy change
No night wakings

Yesterday (not so good):

Wake up - 6.30 (great, an hour later than usual)
E - 6.45
A - 7.00 - 8.10 (put down 5 mins earlier than usual as lots of yawning & burying into me)
S - 8.10 - 9.15 (1 w/u after 50 mins, actual time asleep probably 55 mins)
A - 9.15 - 10.20
E - 10.20 (a bit early as didn't want to feed to close to next S)
A - 10.35 - 11.00
S - 11.00 - 12.40 (1 w/u after 30 mins, actual time asleep 1 hr 30)
A - 12.40 - 2.10
E - 2.10
A - change nappy
S - 2.30 - 4.30 (2 w/u after 30 mins & 1hr 15, actual time asleep 1hr 30)
A - 4.30 - 6.05 (including bath)
Bed - put down at 6.15, asleep at 6.50 (she usually settles at bedtime after 15/20 mins)
Woke up at 7.45 & flipped herself over. Settled back quickly once back in sleep position, she as never woken between bedtime & dream feed before)
E - dream feed & nappy change
No night wakings but........

EW this morning at 5.20! My thought are that this is because she is OT at bedtime. Should the last A of the day be a bit shorter? Going to try & put her down to settle for bed a bit earlier tonight.

So far today's EASY is as follows ( not so good as EW means having to have 4 naps instead of 3):

Wake up - 5.20
E - 5.50
A - 6.05 - 7.05
S - 7.05 - 9.05 (no w/u & I capped the nap, wish I'd left her a bit longer!)
A - 9.05 - 10.05
E - 10.05
A - 10.20 - 11.00
S - 11.00 - 12.15 (no w/u but I think the bin men woke her up. Once she gets past the 45 min mark with no w/u she'll usually go right through to 2 hrs +)
A - 12.15 - 2.10
S - 2.10 - 2.40 (in the pram whilst walking)
E - 2.45 (later than 4 hours but wanted to get a nap in before feed. She really could go 5 hours between some feeds)
A - 3.00 - 4.25
S - 4.25 - 4.55 (really struggle to determine her A time after a short nap. I put her down after 1hr 20 A time thinking I'd rather have an UT nap but it took her 25 mins to settle & she woke after 30 ins so assume OT?)

So the plan of this evening is to put her down or bed after 1hr 30 A time & hope she's not OT on this.

Any thoughts or tweaks you think I could make?

Thanks for yor help.

[creations]

How did the earlier BT go?

[Ima shel Alon]

Is the 1.40h A time in the morning always gives you a solid nap?
It looks like her good A time, the one that is followed by a good nap is closer to 2h, but many babies like their first A to be shorter than the rest. I know Creations said the opposite that it actually might cause the EW, but for us it was always shorter A in the AM, or the day was ruined. I guess you'll have to try things out and see which way works for you.
It was only one evening that there was EBT and that gave you a good night and a good WU, but it's hard to conclude anything from one night, I would think it's worth a try to stay with EBT for a few days and see how things look.
I want to second Creations on the developmental leaps. It can really be a bother, but it does pass after a few days and like she said, try and give her enough time practicing during the day.

[allm416]

Thank you both for your replies.

The shorter A before bedtime certainly resulted in her taking less time to settle. I put her down at 6.25pm (after 1hr 30) & she was asleep by 6.40. She woke this morning at 6am so not too bad. All in all I think I seeing that she'll sleep 11.5 hours through the night as long as she's not OT at bedtime. Just really need to get to grips with her A times after short naps.
The early bedtimes are not good for my husband as it means he doesn't get to see her in the evenings. I think I'm going to try & gradually increase it back up to 7pm if I can get her last nap right.
I tried to push her first A a couple of weeks ago & really struggled with short naps. So I think for now I'm going to leave it as is & try again in another couple of weeks. She definitely prefers a shorter first A time. In the meantime I might just push that next A time out by 5 minutes to take me to 2 hours. Still haven't quite sussed her afternoon A times. It always seems that I'm trying to squeeze in 2 catnaps as we've had an off morning or the first 2 naps went great & we only need a catnap so doesn't matter too much what time she's put down.
Thanks for your help