2 - 1 Hell - please take pity on this poor soul!!!!

[Losh]

Well, we have been keeping with the long first A for a week now, but today stretched the first A to 5.5 hrs:

E 06.15
A 06.15 - 11.50 (he was really happy all morning and although he got drowsy very quickly when I started his nap routine, he may have been able to stay awake a little longer ...)
E 11.30 (thought a full belly might help, so an early lunch)
S 11.50 - 13.15
A 13.15 - 18.40 (BT took longer tonight, so went down 5.5hrs after nap)

Really though you want to rid that CN or 2nd nap, I suspect it's causing more issues

It would be better without it! We can just about scrape through the day on a 1.5hr nap, but with 40 - 60 mins another nap is essential I guess. It doesn't help that he wakes early. If only he would wake at 7am .....!

off a Cn after ~4.5 hrs A time and B 2.5 hrs later

What's the reason for waiting 4.5hrs A before a CN? If he went down at 12 and slept for an hour, that would put the CN at 5.30 and BT 8.30? Why is that better than a CN at say, 4, with BT at 7.00?

Also, do you know why the 2-1 causes so many issues? If the babies are doing 11hr NT and 2hr naps in 24hrs, why does it matter whether it is 1 x 2hr nap in the middle of the day or 2 x 1 hr naps AM & PM?

I have read lots and lots on the subject over here, but don't think I've ever seen the reasons why!

Thanks so much for all your input.

[ZacsMumme]

You can offer the CN earlier, usually LOs won't take it that soon ie 3 hrs after a good nap or nap over 1 hr if they are well in the 2-1 though.
if you feel a Cn after 3 hrs works go for it. It's just about what finding what works for your LO and usually in the 2-1 1 nap is extended while the other is reduced to a Cn then dropped as the A time is increased till LOcan cope with the long A times.

It doesn't matter really. But often 2 naps once you hit the 2-1 can cause NW, EW or nap refusals as the LO isn't tired enough for 2nd nap or isn't tired enough at night after shorter A times.

If your questioning if your LO is ready for 1 nap then you an go back to 2 and see how it goes really...

[Losh]

I feel that he is ready and he seems perfectly happy with longer A times, so I will persevere. He will go down for a nap quite easily even after a nap of an hour or so. Last week he went down 2hrs after having 50 mins!

But often 2 naps once you hit the 2-1 can cause NW, EW or nap refusals as the LO isn't tired enough for 2nd nap or isn't tired enough at night after shorter A times.

I know this seems to be the result, I just wondered why?! Logic says that if total day sleep is 2 hours, it shouldn't really matter how it is distrubuted. It clearly does though and I would love to know the explanation as to why. What on earth is going on with them?!!!

[ZacsMumme]

I think given you have an LO who likes sleep and will nap well when you PD no matter what you may find having close to set times and sticking with them a good week may work well for you.

The 2-1 took us 1.5months BUT Z was pretty young for it AND is touchy with sleep so I was very careful to watch for OT.

Logic says that if total day sleep is 2 hours, it shouldn't really matter how it is distrubuted.

LOL yes, Well I think its just to do with balance. 2 X 1 hr naps probably would be fine for some LOs, but others (ie my boy) wouldnt go down for a nap after 3.5hrs so our day would get very long, or we would get into an UT/OT loop with the PM nap refusal once the AM was taken KWIM?

[Losh]

you have an LO who likes sleep and will nap well

It's true that he will go down easy, but his naps are so hit and miss these days in terms of length ...

The 2-1 took us 1.5months

Well, I must be doing something wrong! He started with the EW in December and we are still having problems - we had a 5.30am this weekend, which is harsh! I did manage to get him to go back to sleep, but it took until 6.30am and I got 45 mins out of him.

Tbh, my problems began when he started nursery. Up until then he had been doing a 1.5hr nap am and a 45min nap pm. (He had started waking early-ish around 6.15am / 6.30am, but that was ok). For the first few weeks at nursery he would only do short naps - sometimes a total of just 35 mins all day! Of course this resulted in a terribly OT baby, which I am confident was the start of the problem.

Since then his sleeps overall have improved at nursery, and I have tried to switch from long am/short pm to short am/long pm, but he would so often wake early from the second nap and so end up OT again ....

I wonder if he is just in a bad habit these days ..... He did have a wonder week mid march with long naps and good nights, so I know he can do it - it's so frustrating"

[ZacsMumme]

Oh well we had EW Zs entire life until he was on 1 nap

Do you think nursery could've OS him and he is struggling to WD at the end of the day?

If you feel the Ew are habitual have you tried W2S, it's a pain, but it worked for us around this age with an EW phase.

[Losh]

Ugghh, that must have been hard work, but what utter joy when it stopped! What time does he sleep to now?

I'm sure it must be OS at nursery as there is so much going on, so we do try to have a quiet hour or so at home before bed. Other than that there's not much I can do about it! They didn't try to put him down for a PM CN after an hour lunchtime nap yesterday, so he was losing it by BT. He woke at 5.30am this morning but cried gently for 25 mins (I didn't go in) and thankfully went back off - yay!

I have considered W2S as I used it to break his 45 nap habit ages ago, but because his WU time can vary so much I'm not sure if it would be appropriate? In the last fortnight he has only woken before 6am 3 times, so it could be worse!

[ZacsMumme]

Ugghh, that must have been hard work, but what utter joy when it stopped! What time does he sleep to now?

LOL I got used to it and he was early to bed. We would et 7-5.30am...some 4.30 starts at 6 months when dropping the CN was needed

He sleeps 7-7ish now Not asleep the entire 12hrs but most of it and wakes happy and quietly in his cot.

I have considered W2S as I used it to break his 45 nap habit ages ago, but because his WU time can vary so much I'm not sure if it would be appropriate? In the last fortnight he has only woken before 6am 3 times, so it could be worse!

How may hours sleep is he getting a night? If it is 10.5 or more I wouldnt worry too much, as this is a full nights sleep technically and for some this is all they will do so it is EBT and early rising, or later BT and later WU...but for some you still get the EW as they are wired that way.

Have you got blackout blinds, white noise etc in his room?

[Losh]

7 - 7 sounds wonderful! Sam never plays in his cot - he always wakes crying.

He averages around 11.25 hours at night and gets 12.5 - 13 hours in 24 hours, so he isn't doing so badly as far as total sleep - it's just at the wrong time for me!

We have a blackout (which is completely effective), but not white noise. I tried some cd's when he was a tiny but they didn't have any effect and then he got into a great sleep pattern so I didn't think any more of them. Tbh, I don't want to introduce any other 'prop' as he is bad enough now at sleeping away from home! I don't want to be lugging blackout blinds and cd's with me ....

I have been pretty consistent for the last 2 weeks and have managed to get 6 one-nap days and I have started leaving him in his cot more when he wakes in the morning. The other day he woke at 5.30am and was crying really gently and stop / starting, so I just left him to it. He went on for 25 mins then went back to sleep until 6.50am. I had another day when he woke early but cried harder, so I went in and comforted him and then walked out. He did yell hard for a few mins but then went into a quiet cry and went back off.

I know CIO isn't popular on BW, but I sort of think what I was doing was more WIWO or maybe controlled crying? Either way, he woke at 5.46am this morning and let out a couple of cries and went back to sleep until 6.47am! Even better was the nap - he woke after 1hr 20mins, couple of cries then back off for another 40 mins, so a 'perfect' 2 hour nap today - hurrah!

Our day today was like this:

Up at 06.47, nap 12.51 - 14.50, BT 19.40

BT seemed a little late, but I remember you said to PD 5hrs after nap if longer than 1.5 hours and a 2 hour nap is pretty solid, so I went with it. I would rather BT be a bit later if I get a later WU, so here's hoping!

[ZacsMumme]

he woke at 5.30am and was crying really gently and stop / starting, so I just left him to it.

This sounds like a mantra cry ie not crying for you, just trying to settle on and off...is that right?
If he starts to really cry, like an 'I need you' cry then you need to go in and comfort him or do WI/WO. It sounds like you are really doing this already, but I just want to make sure you aren't doing CC - This is based on the clock, not your childs need for you. At BW we dont support or discuss CC methods.

Here is some info on a mantra cry, and WI/WO. I found WI/WO very effective for BT antics and NW at this age
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=64160.0
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=80750.0

Your day looks really good Great one!
PS SOme Los always wake crying - Z used to for a long time too, so dont worry about that too much

[Losh]

I always found it hard to identify a mantra cry, but he wasn't getting mad, just moaning and groaning - he certainly wasn't distressed so I felt quite happy to leave him be.

I was looking at the clock (a few minutes of crying can seem like hours!) but it wasn't the deciding factor on whether I would go in or not. He was crying, but the situation was controlled iyswim? When he got upset on the second day I went in and calmed in and he was cross when I left, but soon settled down.

We had another good day yesterday:

Up at 07.11, he fell asleep for 10 mins in the car at 11.50 so nap was 13.26 - 15.10 and BT 19.40

This morning he woke at 06.44 and I went in to him right away, but he wasn't really crying and I think he was still tired as he was still laying down when I went in and was pretty grumpy all morning! I PD at 12.10, so I hope he hasn't got OT .....

I really hope he starts waking happy again - he used to when he was smaller and it was a joy to hear his little coos and gurgles!

[ZacsMumme]

I am wondering if you need to try to set the A times, and stick with them for a week no matter what - something like
5hr A then 2hr nap then 5hr A then BT. And see how it goes for a week. Just to reset his clock etc.

If he wakes after 6.30 I would just get him up or leave for a max of 15mins is he is settled in the cot. Then do your 5hr A time from coming out of the cot. SOme LOs at this age need stability and a week of it may just help.

Any nap less than 2hrs ie 1.5 I would PD for BT early though, pull that A back 15/30minutes.

What do you think? - Overall he is doing well! So are you! x

[Losh]

Thanks - we are trying!

I could stick with the same A, but I am struggling to get a decent nap length so I am still having to resort to a late PM CN .

This is how the last few days have been. He is getting an appropriate amount of sleep overall and I am much happier with the later BT and subsequent later WU, but I am concerned that if I drop the CN on the days when the first nap is shorter, it may lead to OT or I will have to do such an EBT that his WU will then be early, even with a long night.

                                                       Nap                                                   CN
Up   A   Sleep   Wake   Length   A   CN   Wake   Length   A   BT
06:47   06:04   12:51   14:51   02:00            00:00   04:49   19:40
07:11   06:15   13:26   15:10   01:44            00:00   04:30   19:40
06:44   05:26   12:10   13:45   01:35   02:50   16:35   17:05   00:30   02:40   19:45
06:56   05:09   12:05   13:10   01:05            00:00   05:15   18:25 (Nursery - refused CN)
06:39   05:36   12:15   13:05   00:50   02:00   15:05   15:45   00:40   03:16   19:01 (Nursery)
06:35   06:08   12:43   14:04   01:21                   Refused CN                         04:46    18:50 (meant to be earlier but he nursed for ages!)

Looking at that, what sort of A time before nap do you think I should stick at?

The day he had the 2 hour nap he was falling asleep in his buggy after being out all morning and when I got him out to get his shoes and coat off he really lost it and it was all I could do to get him undressed and into his sleeping bag! I decided to nurse him to sleep as he was so worked up (I never do this for nap time) and that day he woke after 1hr 20 and went back to sleep almost immediately. I wondered whether it was because we nurse before BT, so he got confused?! I have always tried to avoid nursing to sleep as his naps would usually be shorter when he didn't self settle, but that was way back when he was a tiny, so maybe now he would have a nice long sleep with a belly full of milk!

[ZacsMumme]

Hmmmm so with a 6 hr A you are getting close to 2 hr naps, and with a shorter A shorter naps....does that sound right?

I would really try to stick with PD fora nap after the same A time for a week...ie 6 hrs. Then if he wakes before 1.5 hrs give him a chance to resettle and only go in if you have to. I would try to do a quick resettle if the nap is less than 1hr15 but don't spend forever doing it

Your days hold be 12 hrs...less if short nap and no CN...so if 6.30 WU then nap 12.30 and BT 6.30 at the latest, or 5 hr A max. After a 6hr AM A I wouldn't give him much more, that is a long A time and total A timed during the day of over10 hrs.

Did you try shorter first A ie 5 hrs at all?

Hugs, it's a hard transition x

[Losh]

Hmmmm so with a 6 hr A you are getting close to 2 hr naps, and with a shorter A shorter naps....does that sound right?

It would appear so! Today I PD after 5hr 50 (6.35 WU) and he slept for 2.5 hrs! I woke him in the end as I was worried we were getting too late. As it was, BT ended up being 19.50. Should I really be capping at 2 hrs?

Our days average out at 12hr 45, but as our nights average at 11hr15, I don't see how I can make the day shorter if I can't make the night longer!

I have tried A times from 4.5 - 6 hours and got naps of anything from 50 mins - 2.5 hrs! The problem is that I just cannot see any pattern. For example - a 5hr40 A has given me 50 min naps and 1hr 45 naps. A 5hr35 A just 2 weeks ago gave me a 1hr 25 nap and the same A today (with same WU) gave me a mammoth 2.5 hr nap!

He certainly seems to do a longer nap after a longer 1st A, so maybe I will go with a 5hr50 A for a week and see how we get on. Perhaps I can do BT 4 -4.5 hrs A from nap without causing any problems. Was a little concerned that it might be too short an A if he has a good nap though ....

It really is tricky! I expect I will finally get him onto a nice schedule and then his last molars will come through or we will hit the 1-0!