10 mth old won't sleep through night

[2ndTimeAround]

My LO is 10 months and won't sleep through the night w/o nursing.  She sleeps in bed with me since birth.  When she wakes she usually only nurses for 2 mins and is back to sleep.  I've tried the CIO method in her crib and after 1.5 hrs of crying we gave up.  Naps are the same issue.  I don't think she is hungry but is soothing herself to sleep.  This night waking happens about 5 times a night.  I am getting ready to go back to work (night shift) and I need her in her crib.  I've read 'The no-cry sleep solution' and it sounded good in theory but when we tried it, a big fail again.  I'm not sure where we are going wrong.  We use comforting words like 'shhh' and play soft lullaby music.  We try walking her in our arms when she is awake but not fully awake to get her back to sleep w/o nursing but she fully wakes up and screams/cries until I nurse her or give her a bottle.  All my research is so contradicting: she'll out grow it or you need to nip it in the butt.  HELP, what am I doing wrong?

[ZacsMumme]

HUGS - You arent doing anything wrong.
Wha has happened is that your LO has become relient on a prop (your breast) to get back to sleep. Same with the co-sleeping. This is what your LO is used to and taking it away instantly is like someone taking away your comfort item, or something you need to sleep ie a pillow.

I am glad you gave up on CIO, and at BW we dont support leaving a baby to cry. All this does is break their trust in you.

Have a read of the following and let me know what you think. Given your LO has never slept independently I think the Gradual Withdraw or Gentle Removal Plan (adapted from Pantlys book) would work best. This is NOT a quick fix, but it does work and you will make progress.
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=67676.0
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=104192.0
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=80750.0 - Note WI/WO is for 12mths+ You would be looking at PU/PD below as an alternative
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=209637.0

Sorry I know this is a lot of info, but I think you ned to be informed before making a decision as it will be hard work.
I am going to see if I can get some more eyes on this for you, hopefully someone who has BTDT can offer some good advice

[Fiver]

Will she go to sleep in her crib with you in the room at bedtime?  If so, this could be a place to start.  We only ever co-slept with DD after she woke up for a NF and the time she woke gradually moved closer to the morning until I then said that if she had a NW after a particular time (say 4am) that she could then come in, have some milk (or not) and then co-sleep.  Over time that also gradually moved back and 99.7% of the time now (don't want to tempt fate! ) stays in her cot all night.

It's not a very BW method, but is a gentle way of losing the co-sleep/BF prop.

She's also got a muslin cloth which she holds on to and her thumb to suck as comfort items, so we always make sure she's got them for going to sleep too.

[Shiv52]

{{{hugs}}}

How does she go to sleep for naps and bedtime?  Do you feed her to sleep?

[cuckoochick]

Hi,
I just thought I'd pop by and relate my experiences. We were stuck in a BFing to sleep prop for a loooooong time- well mainly for BT and NWs (naps I could get her down by rocking her to sleep).
To get her to settle at BT I ended up swapping one prop for another really. I BFed until drowsy and then rocked her to sleep as I figured this would be an easier prop for me to break. I had tried Pantley's Gentle Removal Plan but we just didn't get far with it. DD needed the breast in her mouth and I would have to keep her there for ages and trying to unlatch was a nightmare as she'd wake and then we had to go through the whole process again and again and again. So at BT I rocked her to sleep and put her down asleep in the crib.

 Like Amanda, we mainly co-slept from when C woke up for her NF and then she came into bed with us. When we needed to get her into her own bedroom, I moved a mattress into her room and from the first NW I went and slept on the mattress in her room. We were still feeding to sleep for NWs at that point too so I would feed and then sleep next to her.

At 6.5mos things started to get really bad and C was waking so much in the night that we just couldn't go on so at that point I decided that enough was enough and we needed to sleep train. I posted here and got some great advice to use a mixture of shh/pat and to comfort in the crib so we started from the first nap where I patted in the crib, shhhhed and said comforting words. PU made her far more angry when we PD so we just went for all comforting in the crib. It really didn't go as badly as we thought and she settled within about 20minutes and we patted all the way to sleep. Over the course of the next few days we reduced the patting to just a hand on her bum, then to just sitting by the crib and shhhing before making our way out of the door and leaving her to settle herself to sleep fully.
 
The plan for NWs was for DH to do any before 2am and then I would do 1 NF and then DH to do any after. However, as if by some miracle, DD started STTN from the very day that we started sleep training so we didn't have to do any of that. Sounds unbelievable I know and I realise that we are very lucky that our DD accepted the changes we made so readily.

We'd had a pretty consistent WD routine for months beforehand and this is now a big sleep cue for DD- blackout blind down, a lullaby then white noise. She also loves her loveys. Initially this was a blanket comforter with a teddy bear's head but now she also has a teddy in there with her. At MIL's she sleeps with her favourite hard-bodied doll!!!  Now she doesn't have white noise, we just put 20minutes of lullabies on but she's out within 5-10mins at most.

Here to hold your hand!

[2ndTimeAround]

Wow all, I really feel supported:)  I just read all your posts so I will try to respond to everyone.  My DD as we speak is in her crib.  We moved our rocker recliner into her room and thought I'd try nursing her while rocking and gently place her into her crib while tucking a lovie in her hands.  She went into her crib at 8:30pm and it's now 10:20pm and she woke 3 times where we had to pick her up and rock her back to sleep.  We are trying this tonight with fingers crossed:)

@ZacsMumme we have tried the gentle removal plan and it works for only a short time and she ends up waking fully.  I am curious tho, what is the pick up-put down idea?

@Shiv52 She is the same for naps and BT.  I have to nurse her to sleep.  Sometimes she won't nap at all:(

@Fiver I have never tried her in my room with her crib.  We moved her crib out of our room and were really hoping to avoid moving it back in.

@cuckoochick  Wow congrats on nipping it in the butt.  Do you think there would be anything wrong with DD coming in to co-sleep for her early morning feeding and staying there until morning or will that set us back?

I wish I could fast forward and have this all behind me (not to wish time away).  I find this so confusing.  My 10 yr old DS never had this problem.  Can she really be hungry through the night?  Should we be feeding her?  Tonight when she was crying in her crib we went down to check on her and she was sitting up in her crib.  My DH picked her up and she instantly went back to sleep.  Was this the right thing to do?  What should we do when she is stirring in her crib?  She doesn't like to be patted or shhh'd.  She wants to be p/u'd.  How do I know when she is fully awake or asleep awake.

Many thnx for all the support.  I just joined and I feel so at home!

Cheers:)

[Fiver]

Sorry, I didn't mean for her crib to be in your room.  I meant crib in her own room.  Does she go to sleep in her crib with you in her room with her?

[cuckoochick]

@cuckoochick  Wow congrats on nipping it in the butt.  Do you think there would be anything wrong with DD coming in to co-sleep for her early morning feeding and staying there until morning or will that set us back?

I'd say if you're trying to break the co-sleeping prop then it would be confusing to bring her into your bed after a certain time but not before, iykwim?

As for how you can settle her in the cot, is she crying or just fussing? You need to find what works for your LO. Maybe stroking her hair or just a hand on the back? Or if she will be calmed just by your presence in the room then I'd sit by the cot and shhh.

As for the feeds, how many is she having a night? Some 10mos might still have 1 NF. I certainly wouldn't be feeding at every NW if you are going to work towards independent sleep.

From your description of those NWs in the early evening it sounds like there is some OT at play as well as your DD not being able to self-settle. Would you post your routine so we can have a look too?

[2ndTimeAround]

Update:  We have been putting her in her room in her crib to sleep for 1.5 days.  This includes naps.  I NTS for all naps and for her bedtime feed.  I then place her in her crib, asleep.  When she wakes she usually stands up and we pick her up, rock her in our arms, say Shhh and it's sleepy time and lay her back in her crib and usually she is asleep again.  I think maybe we were trying to do too much all at once.  Break her of the co-sleeping, NTS, sleep in her own crib in her own room and did I mention she is cutting her top teeth?  Any thoughts on this?  Here is her schedule usually.

7:30am wake for day
play
9:00am breakfast
play
10:00am BF in my bed until asleep
11:00am (if lucky, sometimes earlier) awake
play
12:00pm lunch
play
2:00pm BF in my bed until asleep
2:30pm awake
play
3:00pm snack
play
4:30-5:00pm supper
play
7:00pm bath, cereal
play (nothing to rowdy)
8:00pm NTS for night lay her on sofa until my bedtime
10:00pm in bed with me nurse at her leisure sometimes every hour sometimes she'll go longer

She seems to sleep the longest stretch between 5:00am and 7:30am.

She used to use a paci but now doesn't like it.  She doesn't like having her head rubbed or her back.  She's not much for patting either. 

Since last night when we put her in her crib she wakes frequently which means we pick her up alot.  It seems like if we don't pick her up she cries loudly and will wake herself up more.  I just don't know what to tackle first.

[cuckoochick]

Hi lovely, I get what you are saying about trying to do too much all at once as I know it is scary and you want to do things gently for your LO and that is fine but you will eventually need to tackle all of these props but we can do that at a slower pace. So it seems like for now, you want to concentrate on getting her sleeping in her crib? Is that right?

As for your routine, I'd say there is definitely some OT at play as that is a long stretch to BT after a 30min nap (5.5hrs A time). At this age the 2:1 can be tricky and most LOs will be moving towards either a long AM/short PM nap or vice versa. I think you may be stuck in an UT/OT loop and need a bit of a routine tweak. Has your LO ever napped well? At this age my LO was doing a 2hr nap in the AM and a short PM nap of about 30mins followed by a short A to bed. Can you make BT earlier? Bringing that forward would cut down on that OT and hopefully cut down on those NWs in the early evening.

I'm on my phone at the moment and it's tricky to post links but I'll go and ask for some eyes for you. I think you need to push your first A time a little bit to get a longer nap.

Another thing that may help is establishing a BT routine where LO goes to sleep upstairs in bed at night after bath etc so that she knows it's BT and her sleep will be more restful than being downstairs.

Let me know what you think and I'll ask for routine help for you?

[2ndTimeAround]

I think to start I would like her sleeping in her crib as it is safer for her.  She has never napped well.  Today for instance, she was up at 8am after a long night, ate breakfast at 9 and tried to put her down for a nap at 10am.  She was yawning and rubbing her eyes but she wanted no part of it.  So it's 11:40am and still no nap.  I don't know if she would go to bed earlier or not.  It's always been 8pm.  What do you mean by push her A time a bit longer to get a longer nap? (bare with me, I knew to this:))  The last couple nights we have been trying to put her to sleep in her room by feeding her in her room and placing her in her crib when
she is asleep.  We are trying not to let her fall asleep anywhere but there.  I would someone to help me plan a routine!  I am just at a loss.

[cuckoochick]

Yes- sleeping in the crib sounds like a good move. It will be a more restful sleep for all of you but I think you will still have issues with NWs if your LO can't self-settle and is relying on being BF to sleep but we can work on that when you are ready.

As regards your routine, I think your first A time (Awake time) from waking up in the morning to Nap 1 is a little short. I know that you said your LO was rubbing her eyes and yawning after 2 hours but this is very short for her age. Typical A times for 8-10 month olds are 3-4hours so I think she simply wasn't tired enough to go to sleep when you tried to put her down. She may have been yawning because she was bored and needed a change of activity. Cues can become tricky to read at this age.

There are some sample routines you can look at here that may help you:
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=164031.0
At this age most LOs are heading towards dropping to one nap and this can be a lengthy process and sleep can be a little wonky so it might take a wee bit of figuring out amongst us.
Do you think your LO would prefer a longer nap in the morning or in the afternoon? Do you have other childcare/routine needs that you need to work around, e.g. school drop-offs as we might need to factor that in?

We need to try and figure out what your DD's preferred A time is so that she is tired enough to have a nap of 1.5-2hrs as this is a restorative sleep. So for a start we could work towards a 3-3.5hr A time so if she wakes at 7:30am that would make her first nap at roughly 10:30 or 11amish. Anyway, check out those sample routines on the link and get back to me.

[2ndTimeAround]

So what I gather from that thread is I may be trying to get her to nap too early and should postpone her nap by .5hr to 1hr?  What I don't understand is whether or not I omit the pm nap?  DD isn't a cranky baby.  I always said she wasn't one of those babies that required alot of naps but maybe that's where we are going wrong b/c she doesn't typically sleep good at night. 

Last night she was put in her crib asleep but woke many times, stood up in her crib and cried until we picked her up.  When we picked her up she fell right back to sleep (deep sleep or so I thought) and we tried to lay her back in her crib.  Instantly she cried.  I tried using key words and shh/pat her little behind but no way would DD have it.  At one point it took 16x's to pu/pd for her to stay asleep in her crib.  But it didn't last long.  In fact this went on all night until 4:30 when DH gave her a bottle and she then wanted to be awake so he put her in bed with me where I nursed her 2x's between 5:00am and 7:00am and she woke at 7:30am for the day. What should we do when DD doesn't want to be put in her crib eventho she seems asleep?

We just can't figure out what to do.  I know we need routine but DH is exhausted, I'm exhausted and he doesn't want to give up and neither do I but I feel so let down.

I do have a DS whose 10 yrs old and he gets home from school @ 3pm but I don't need to consider that when it comes to DD's naps.   I find DD is more likely to except a morning nap over an afternoon nap.  Truthfully I would like a long AM nap but would settle for 2 shorter naps (AM/PM) if need be. 

Routine help is much appreciated!!!

[cuckoochick]

Yep, exactly. She's simply not tired enough to sleep a good nap as she's not been awake enough. So if she's up at 7:30am that would mean putting her down for a nap around 10:30-11am ish (we need to figure out her preferred A time as she's not in a set routine from what you posted). We'd hope that nap was 1.5-2hrs long and then she'd do a similar A time providing that nap was good to the afternoon nap which may be a bit shorter. So your day would look like this:
Wake 7:30am
Nap 1  10:30-12/12:30 or 11-12:30/1 (as I said we need to know how long your DD's A time should be without her being UT (undertired) or OT (overtired)
Wake
Nap 2 3:30-4:30 or 4:00-5ish
Wake
Bed 8pmish as she's had a shorter nap.

Our first step has to be to try to work out how to get a longer first nap so, tomorrow depending upon what time your DD wakes, try to put her down sometime between 3 and 3.5hrs after she wakes and we'll see what kind of nap you get and take it from there. Let me know how you get on

[2ndTimeAround]

Last night was the third night of trying my DD in her crib. FAILURE:(

Last night my DD was put in her crib asleep after I nursed her in her room.  She went in her crib at 8:30 pm.  At 10pm she started crying and did not want to be put back into her crib even tho she seemed asleep when we put her in it.  After trying 6x's and her waking and crying the minute we layed her down we gave up.  My DH took her to the rocking chair in the family room, rocked her and they fell asleep until 5am when she had a bottle and came in bed with me where she nursed 2x's and was up for the day at 7:45am.  ERRRR.  Where are we going wrong?  I can't figure this out.  I am not supposed to let the LO cio in her crib and I am not supposed to be her prop so how do I get her to sleep in her crib w/o our help to self-soothe? 

We have taken the advice given.  Last night at 7pm we started her bedtime routine.  We had a nice bath, a massage, a story in her room and then I nursed her to sleep.  I have black out blinds in her room and white noise that I play.  I read somewhere about the different stages of an infants sleep and it seems like the same time in her sleep cycle she stirs and wakes to the point where if she could self-soothe she'd probably go back to sleep. 

My DH can get her back to sleep in his arms w/o feeding her so we know she doesn't need to be NTS (unless she is with me).  She won't take a paci which we bought yesterday hoping this might help.  She wants nothing to do with a lovie. 

People keep telling me to get her used to her crib.  But if I put her in her crib asleep does she really know she is in it?  The minute she stirs and cries we pick her up so that would be the only time she would know she isn't in DH arms or mommy's bed.

HELP....HELP....HELP.... we are desperate to get our lives back on track.  DH hasn't slept in his own bed for 10 mths.  He sleeps on the floor or in the reclining chair.  He doesn't complain tho but I feel sad for him:(