At the end of my tether

[boozal]

DD is 14 nearly 15 months old.  We have always rocked her to sleep and put her in her cot asleep which I know is not ideal but it's just happened like that!  I am 5 weeks away from giving birth to our 2nd baby and in the last week have started sleep training (yes I know it's late!).  DH has so far been supportive of my dislike of letting her cry and CRIO method.  Because we haven't 'trained' her before now we took advice that WI/WO might not be the best method for her and that sitting in the room with her might be better.  However she is very spirited and we have found that by doing this over stimulates her more as she constantly stands up and starts playing in her cot, she thinks its playtime. We generally leave her (she isn't distressed at all) and after an hour or so she grizzles and we go in and lie her down and pat her back etc to try to encourage her to go to sleep. She persistently resists and fights us, if we stay she giggles, squeels in delight and thinks its playtime so we leave and she cries.  This pattern has happened all week and we've been going in up to 6,7,8 times just lying her back down again and leaving the room. Eventually after about 30 minutes of the grizzle/cry she goes to sleep with one of us shhing and patting her back.

My husband thinks its acceptable to leave her for up to 5 minutes to cry and whilst she often just grizzles tonight it was full on hysterical sob and I can't leave her so go in.  Today has been horrendous as she had a very early nap and then refused her afternoon nap so she went from 10.45am-5.50pm without sleeping, she was clearly OT but refused to sleep so I know that today is an exception.

I am finding it really difficult to identify the difference between leaving her to cry and not over stimulate her and the WI/WO method.  Its causing BIG problems between my husband and I as he thinks leaving her to cry for even a few minutes regardless of whether it is a grizzle or a sobbing cry and in theory exhaust herself and finally go to sleep acceptable whereas I instinctively feel that is wrong even though I accept that our constant presence and going in and out wakes her up and stimulates her. I am literally dreading every night now and I always end up resenting him and crying myself.

Please help, thank you very much in advance x

[j.and.e]

My lo doesnt settle if i'm there. I lie him down, sooth briefly, say sleepy phrase then walk out. I count to 5 to see if cry escalating or settling, rinse and repeat! I find it works well to settle or for OT NWs, but doesnt work to extend naps or for EWs. Hth xx

[Katet]

I'm wondering if with the 1hour of time it takes for her to get to the point she grizzles & the mention of 2 naps that may be part of the problem. Now my DS1 was very late moving to 1 nap at 20months so I do know some children need 2 naps, but I'm thinking that it may help to look at her overall routine as well as just her falling asleep.

I am a Mum who can't do the crying, even the grizzling got me, so I was very much hands on with sleep with my children & can give some ideas, but I think the first step is to look at what her average sleep times are (not time in bed, but actually sleeping) & see how much total sleep she gets etc.

[cuckoochick]

I agree with Kate. My DD was really early at switching to 1 nap (11 mos) but I also think the amount of resistance and behaviours you are describing (playing, lying there for an hour before she grizzles) sounds like she might be a bit UT.

Please post your routine and then we all might be able to figure something out that help. Hugs lovely, you must be exhausted.

[Jem88]

This sounds exactly like my nearly 15 month old. We too rocked/cuddled her until she was sleepy then put her into her cot, i don't need to pick her up during the night when she wakes so i didn't see this as a problem until now as we are expecting baby no.2 and thinking i probably won't be-able to cuddle/rock her to sleep when i have a big bump lol.

I've been trying to get LO to settle in her cot while i sit in her room - I've been doing this for the past 4 weeks and she just plays, screams when i walk out. But she's recently moved onto 1 nap and i've noticed if i put her into bed 10mins before i think she'll settle (At the moment she's going to sleep/bed 5.5-6hr after her nap.) She'll maybe start to play but i just keep laying her down and saying "it's time for night - night." and she'll settle and go to sleep within 5-10mins.

I can now most of the time leave when she's nearly asleep and she's fine. x

[boozal]

That sounds like great success Jem88 well done, I can only dream.

Thank you ladies so very much for your replies.  I guess I feel I am part of the problem because I just feel so stressed with it all and Im probably not being so consistent as I should be.  She woke twice in the night at 2 and 4am and then wide awake at 6am so last night she had 9 hours broken sleep which I know isn't enough.  She was eye rubbing this morning by 8, but she hadn't had breakfast by this stage, by the time I'd fed her she was wide awake again, not hyper just happily playing.  I decided to give try her with 1 nap today and stretched her out until 10.45 gave her a snack and a drink and then took her up at 11, put her in her cot and she just got so excited as she thought it was playtime again.  I kept lying her down (so hard with a massive bump) telling her it was nighnigh's and then she would just get up again and bounce about.  It was so hard because she just doesn't get it, I left the room a few times but then she grizzled and beams at me when I walk back in and thinks it's playtime.  This continued for 30 minutes and in the end I was so tearful and stressed I gave in picked her up and held her, within 10 seconds she was fast asleep in my arms = fail again!

Jem what time do you nap your 15 month old?
Ladies does this sound like its sort of working or likely to work but just needs time?  I am praying she stays asleep for a good 2 hours if she can but I'm cynical.

Well I started this early on and its now nearly 10pm! she only slept for 1 1/2 hrs and woke at 1ish, she refused a sleep all afternoon and I put her down at 6.15, she fussed and played for 40 minutes and I went into her as she was just standing silently in her cot staring at the door , she beamed at me and I layed her down and told her it was nighnights, shshh etc and rubbed her back and within 5 minutes she was asleep, she didnt cry at all  - I think we had success and she hasn't woken since.

Cuckoochick, thanks hun, yes I'm exhausted and really stressed, this has to be the hardest part of parenthood so far. I think she possibly is self reducing down to 1 nap a day as she can have an early nap ie 9am but then won't sleep again in the afternoon so she gets OT so the last 2 days I've tried her with 1 naps.  Here is her schedule today.

Awake 6am
A - 2hrs
Breakfast 8am
A - 2.5hrs
snack 10.45
nap 11-20 - 12.45
lunch 1pm
A - 4hrs
dinner 5pm
milk 6pm
Bed 6.30pm
asleep tonight @7pm  (she's just woken now at 10pm )

thanks again everyone, xx
 

[Katet]

Sounds like she is ready for 1 nap is she refuses a second with an early one.

Firstly what do you do to set the scene for the nap/bedtime, do you sit in the rocker & say read a story & get her relaxed? That is what I would do start with something that relaxes her & says it is time to settle.

Snacks are a great way (as is being outside) to stretch things out for the nap.

I used to lean over the side of the cot, give a cuddle, but not pick up & then gently lay down, I got to get the feel of the "relaxed body" & breathing at the point that I knew they were unlikely to hype up again.

[boozal]

Thanks for your reply Katet, and thanks for your reassurance that she is ready for 1 nap too, I guess it takes a while for them to get used to it but I hope she lengthens it out a bit.

Thinking about it I probably don't do a pre nap relaxation, I just tell her that I think she's tired and we go upstairs and talk to her about having a sleep and I put her in her cot, I will try this tomorrow and perhaps read to her or at least have a little cuddle first and then put her in.

I think one of the biggest battles is her associating her cot with the need for relaxation and inevitable sleep rather than playtime.

Thanks again hun xx

[Katet]

I have a friend who swore by 1min for every month (to 2.5yo) of story time before sleep & her children setted well... I didnt' know her when mine were little, but I do know that from around 1yo we did stories... reading is good in so many ways, so worth doing.
The other thing is to have music or something that sets the scene. The idea is to have some form of sleep cues that say "lets relax now"

[boozal]

She tends to get over stimulated with books to look at and ends up trying to turn the pages all the time so not sure if a book would be the best thing thinking about it. I did play music to her when she was very young so might try to put that on again and see if that helps. Thank you.

I am glad to report that after her settling successfully last night she did wake up (something else to tackle but small steps I guess) at 10,11,1.30,4 and 5, but she slept until 6.45am which is unheard of.  When I peeped through her door she was sitting quietly in her cot amusing herself rather than crying which is how she normally tells us she's awake. I feel like we have achieved quite a bit as she seems happier in her cot if that makes sense.  My husband got up to her during the night and said she settled quickly so not sure why she still wakens.

I feel more confident that she will go to sleep at 11.30ish this morning and won't be too OT and hopefully stretch it out a bit.  Please please lets be onto a winner sweetie .

Thanks again ladies very much x

[Jem88]

My LO has just switched to 1 nap, Today will be her 9th day and so far she's doing great. She was still messing around at bedtime the first 3 days of 1 nap but she wasn't tired enough as i was putting her down after 4.5hr A time and she was playing for 30mins so i changed it to 5hr then 5.5hr but now she's at 6hr and she goes to sleep straight away.

I was doing 5.5hr A before her nap but she was doing 1.5hr nap so yesterday i tried 5hr A and she slept a full 2hr.

We are currently at 5hr A before nap but i put her down 10mins before her nap and bedtime and she settles fine. x

She does still wake during the night but she's always been a bad sleeper and wakes 3-4 times but i just lay her down and shes off to sleep again.
I keep saying "it's time to go night night" a few times - i did have to say it alot when i started but now she understands what it means. x

[cuckoochick]

Hi lovely,
It sounds like you are doing really well. I think stretching to a 5-5.5 hr A time for the first nap sounds great and hopefully she will lengthen that nap out for you a little to get you through to a slightly later BT.

From the routine you posted she probably was a little OT by BT as she'd had a long afternoon but I think you're doing great. Don't be afraid of early BTs if you need them while you're working this transition. Hopefully as she becomes more practised resettling herself those NWs where you have to go in will reduce as she rolls over and goes back to sleep when she stirs.

Keep us up-to-date with your progress and we'll see if that routine needs any more tweaking. Once you get to 1 nap it's great for a good long while!

[boozal]

Thank you Gem and cuckoochick x your support means a lot. and thanks for telling me I am doing a good job, so sweet of you and I need it!

She did fairly well last night but took quite a while to settle.  Yesterday she only slept from 11.15 for 1.1/4 hours so she was awake at 12.30 no end of trying would make her sleep again! This meant she has an A time of 5.5 in the afternoon as I bathed her, massaged her at 6pm and put her in her cot after a story at 6.30.  She jumped to life when I put her in her cot, sat with her for a while and then left her while she 'played', 35 minutes later she was grizzling lots and when I went into her she was in a bit of a state which made me feel terrible, she was so tired bless her and disorientated but still sitting up. I cuddled her laid her down said my key sentences and she went straight to sleep.  By this stage it was 7.30.

She slept until 11.30 and kept waking (about 5x) she was windy bless her and settled snuggled up with my dressing gown and she slept without waking until 6.15 this morning.  I guess all in all not a bad night.

She is eye rubbing now but I'm going to hold off and stick to the 1 nap and try to get her asleep for 11.30am with a snack and wind down and 10.40ish, that way she will have had a 5hr ish A time.

I guess its just perseverance.  I was getting so hung up on her going straight to sleep when putting her in her cot yesterday that last night I had a reality check and identified that I guess (as long as she goes into her cot earlier) she can spend some time pottering in her cot, as long as she isn't distressed and for now prompt her to go to sleep when I feel she is grizzly, and eventually hope that she gets the idea and can go to sleep herself if I'm not there.  Thats ok isn't it?

This has to be by far the hardest part of parenting so far!!  Thanks again ladies for your amazing support xx

[cuckoochick]

Yeah, I know some people put their LOs in their cot a while before they want them to sleep to get them to wind-down in their cot as long as they are happy to lie there. My DD will lie and chatter away to herself before going to sleep. The only thing to be wary about is that for some LOs if you put her down to early and they are not ready to sleep they might lark about so much in there and then end up OT. The more practice you give and look for emerging patterns in her routine, the more you will get your LOs A time right and she should settle a bit quicker.

I am saying all this and my DD took 45mins to fall asleep tonight which is really unusual for her. She is normally asleep within 10-15mins max.

Keep a track of your A times and nap length the next few days and we'll see if we can help tweak a little to get a longer nap for you.

[boozal]

Thanks again cuckoochick, and yes I agree that she could get overtired if she stays 'playing 'in her cot for too long, I'm always really aware of that.

Well last night she did really well. DD only had a 1.50 broken nap yesterday and had woken by 1.20pm, I had to go out in the afternoon so she stayed with DH.  He forgot to give her her pm milk which is no big deal as she's only been taking a few ounces for the last few days.  As a result she ended up eating a massive dinner, every last little morsel at 5pm.(im going to bring this forward to 4.30 I think). I am a real believer that a good carby dinner helps her sleep so much soundly.

I started quiet time at 5.45 and read her a story, she was a bit highly strung but was eye rubbing a few times.  She had milk in her cot whilst I sat with her repeating my phrases.  At the end she got up by this stage it was 6.15, she basically went a bit hyper and Im wondering if she was a bit UT so I left her to it, I pottered around upstairs so she could hear me.  I went in twice as she was tired and had started moaning a bit and I felt she was calling out for me, each time she saw me she beamed and thought Id come to play bless her, so I'd lay her down again and tell it was nighnights etc, then she would get up so I would leave the room again, she was always calm. (thats all ok to do that isn't it I always hate walking out on her)  She remained quietly fussing in her cot and then at 7 I realised it had all gone quiet and I found her lying on her tummy snoring with her face in my PJ top . 1st night self settling hurrah!!!!!

She woke ay 9pm v briefly and went straight back to sleep with a cuddle and again the same at 11 and then she slept right the way through until 5.45 this morning which was slightly earlier than normal but happy with that.

So yesterday looked like this
awake 0615
A - 5.1/4hrs
Nap 11.30 1hr 50 mins broken sleep
A - 1.20pm until sleep at 7pm = 5hr 40mins
Sleep 7pm

how does that look? I'm a bit concerned that she is going to be OT by 11.30 with her earlier wakening (although saying that it was only by 15 mins) so maybe a 5.5 A is ok??

Thanks in advance, very much xx