3.5 Months baby - night sleep question

[orit78]

Hi There,
My LO is almost 3.5 months now. We are working hard on his day naps (sometimes we do have successful days!). Since there are also two older sisters around afternoon and evening are more tricky. But - we try to make the evening ceremnoy (BT, feed, story, etc.) so usually he goes to sleep at around 8PM (it takes him a while to settle but I think he's on the right way on that.
I BF him though his weight is quite low (his weight his 4.1 Kg = ~9 Pounds). I give him DF (sometimes my hubby gives him a pumped milk) at about 23:00-23:30. He wakes up at about 3-4AM and I give him his paci. Sometimes it works and I get more than an hour of sleep. I just wonder if that's right.. in the BW book that what she suggests. For how long can you expcet a 3 months baby to sleep at night?
This night he woke at 3:00, 3:30 and on both times I gaave him his paci. THen he woke up at 5:30 and I fed him.

[katie80]

For how long can you expcet a 3 months baby to sleep at night?

My general rule was always to not feed them at an earlier interval than fed during the day.  So, if he's on a 3-3.5 hr routine during the day, then I wouldn't feed closer than that during the night.  At 3+ mo, I would say tops for a low weight EBF bub is 4-6 hr. 

A couple of things...
The DF you have listed is quite late.  It's generally recommended that the DF falls between 10 and 11 pm, with the thinking that after 11 pm it can actually disturb a LOs sleep.  So, if possible, see if you can bring that back a bit.  Then, you or DH can go to bed a bit earlier as well.

Secondly, if you give him the paci and he goes back to sleep, but wakes again within the hour (as he did last night), I'd go ahead and feed him. It's quite common to have the DF plus one or two NFs at this age.  I think you're trending toward one, but if his weight is on the lower end, I'd lean toward feeding him.

What does your routine look like during the day?  Are you doing any cluster feeding in the evening to 'tank him up'?   

[orit78]

Hey,
Thanks for the reply. I'll try to be more specific:
We have a routine of 3-4 hours of EASY (depends on his S stage) during the day.
For example this is what we had in the last two days:

E - 5:30 AM (still considered as NF)
E - 8:00 AM (that was a very short nursing. I guess that's because he ate at 5:30 a full meal)
A - 8:15-9:30
S - 9:30 - 11:20

E - 11:20 - 11:50
A - 11:50 - 13:25
S - 13:30 - 15:00

E - 15:00 - 15:40
A - 15:40 - 16:45
S - 16:45 - 17:13 (here he woke up. My guess - he suffered from gas, since he woke up a bit crying and I couldn't make him back to sleep. From here things got worse...)
A - 17:20 - 18:00
E - 18:00 - 18:20
A - 18:20 - 19:30
S - 19:30 -

Then I fed him (like a DF) at 20:30 and also tried at 23:30 to give a pumped milk - but he ate only 30ml (1 oz).
He woke at 1:45 and I fed him and also at 5:22 and I fed him. His morning started at 8:00.

E - 8:15 - 8:40
A - 8:40 - 10:00
S - 10:00 - 11:20

E - 11:30 - 11:50
A - 11:50 - 13:20
S - 13:20 - 15:15

E - 15:15 - 15:40
A - 15:40 - 17:25
S - 17:25 - 18:00 - and here again he woke up and seemed like tummy aces. This time I didn't fed him as I felt he's more tired and upset than hungry.

A - (part of it was crying :-( ) - 18:00 - 19:30 - this included in the end the BT
E - 19:30 - 20:00

And then he went to sleep....He doesn't fell asleep during BF. He fells asleep with paci. Sometimes we need to use pat/sh or to be next to him and more sure he "finds" his place (replug the paci or put my hand on his back).

The reason I give the DF late is because I'm trying to make sure he'll eat. Lately he doesn't eat (when it's pumped milked) or it takes an hour just to feed him with 60ml (about 2 oz).
I feel the evening routine is still confused since I don't know what to do when he wakes up after 40 min from the catnap. It's hard since there are two other sisters and this is the evening dinner and bath for them also....
What should I do?

[katie80]

Looks like your routine is pretty good.  I'm thinking that an ideal A time for him seems to be from about 1 hr 30 - 1 hr 45 min in the morning, and then he handles about 2 hr pretty well after that.  I'm looking at the time from when he first wakes until he goes to sleep (the E is actually included in A time).  It is definitely difficult when they short nap that last nap, but quite common at this age, because if he's getting two full naps in early in the day, that last one often ends up as a CN. 

S - 16:45 - 17:13 (here he woke up. My guess - he suffered from gas, since he woke up a bit crying and I couldn't make him back to sleep. From here things got worse...)
A - 17:20 - 18:00
E - 18:00 - 18:20
A - 18:20 - 19:30
S - 19:30 -

Then I fed him (like a DF) at 20:30 and also tried at 23:30 to give a pumped milk - but he ate only 30ml (1 oz).

What I would have done here is to feed him upon waking, say 17:30ish and then again at about 18:45ish (could be just a top due to the 17:30 feed) and put him to bed at 19:00.  This way, he gets a couple cluster feeds to get more into him and an early bedtime due to that short nap.  Then, I'd wait and do the DF at 22:30 and just do the one.  My guess is that he didn't take much at the 23:30 feed, because he'd already had somewhat of a cluster feed at 18:00 and 20:30, so wasn't super hungry and was also probably in a deeper sleep. 

S - 17:25 - 18:00 - and here again he woke up and seemed like tummy aces. This time I didn't fed him as I felt he's more tired and upset than hungry.

A - (part of it was crying :-( ) - 18:00 - 19:30 - this included in the end the BT
E - 19:30 - 20:00

This time I actually think the A time before the nap was a bit too long, it was over 2 hr since he last woke at 15:15.  So, I think it was an OT nap.  Again, I would have fed him upon waking (after you soothed him a bit: rubbed his tummy/back, did a few bicycles with his legs, walked around, etc), so at about 18:15.  Then, I'd do the cluster feed at 19:15 and aim to have him in bed at 19:30, with a DF between 22:30 and 23:00.

I think there's a good chance he's not taking much at the DF from the bottle because it's too late and he's in a deeper part of sleep, or he may just not prefer the bottle at that time.   The DF doesn't seem to work for all babies, so if it's more of a hassle to try to get him to take it, you might try just letting him sleep and feeding him when he wakes.  The two NFs he's got right now are totally normal for his age.

I feel the evening routine is still confused since I don't know what to do when he wakes up after 40 min from the catnap. It's hard since there are two other sisters and this is the evening dinner and bath for them also....
What should I do?

It's definitely hard to work everything out in the evening for everyone, I understand that.  After a short CN, I guess I'd try to get him in bed earlier if possible and then you can concentrate on bath and such with his sisters.  Would that work?

[orit78]

Thanks again for the support 
This night it was a bit better. I fed him at about 23:30 (I know it's late - but this is the earlier I could get to him - wasn't available before that).
He woke up at 4:15 and I gave him his paci (I've noticed that in the last few days - besides the day I've published - he woke up every night at this hour. - Is this a habit?) It gave me an extra hour sleep as he woke up again at 5:15. This time I fed him and he got back to sleep at 5:45. Unfortunately he woke up an hour later and we heared his gas :-( My DH holded him and he felt asleep in his hands (but that was the only way to calm him). Finally he slept till 8:45.
We went on a trip today but he managed to sleep in the car for his morning sleep and the 2nd sleep. Now we'll see how it goes this afternoon...

[katie80]

Sounds like a good night, apart from the gas. Are you burping him after you feed him in the night? Both of my kids needed to get that out before going back to sleep peacefully.  And if I didn't get it out in time with my DD, she ended up taking in too much milk and then spitting a bunch back up.

That 4:15 am wake could be habitual, but because of his age, it could just be that he's starting to get pretty hungry at that time too.  If you don't want to be up twice (once to give him the paci and then again to feed him), I'd just feed him at that time.  That's almost a 5 hour stretch from 23:30 to 4:15, which is pretty average for his age, I'd say.

Another thing I thought of last night... at that age and probably til about 4.5-5 mo, I APOPd the late afternoon nap or CN so that I could still get supper made and tend to DD.  I either put DS in the wrap/carrier to sleep on me or in the swing.  Since he went down independently at other times of the day, it didn't matter that this one time was 'helped' and it was what was best for our family.  Any way you could do something like that with him?

[orit78]

well - thing is that he's already had some nights of 6 hours (2 nights were even 7 hours) so that's why I give the paci. Sometimes it can give me an extra 2 hours of sleep, but I know what you mean.
As for the CN - yes, we do use the carrier so that we can have some quite around or I use the stroller (in which he sleeps in its cot).
What is APOPd?

[orit78]

Just wanted to update:
Afternoon was not so bad (better than what I've expected) - we got home from the trip and he woke up so I fed him right after we got home (which was 16:25). Then he felt asleep at 18:00 while we were outside doing a short walk with the bikes andd the girls. At 18:40 he moved and I helped him continue his sleep. At 18:55 he was almost awake since my DD2 shouted but we've managed to extend his sleep (so at least we had dinner quitely). At 19:30 I woke him up and fwd him since I didn't want it would be too late for the evening BT and sleep.
This time he ate and then we did his bath. After bath I read him a little story and put him to bed. I was sure it'll take him some time to fell asleep but fortunately, except of twice that I had to replug the paci - it went smoothly.
My plan is to feed him at 23:00.
I just wonder whether I'm doing fine with the afternoons/evening - when he has short naps I try to extend his A time by holding him a bit and doing the BT before the meal. But like today when he had a good nap, I switched and first fed him.
Another question - in the BW book Tracy writes not to do cluster feedings after the age of 8 weeks. Should I use the cluster feedings when he has short naps in the afternoon?

[becj86]

What is APOPd?

Accidental Parenting on purpose Which is what you're doing by having him in the sling for the CN

Another question - in the BW book Tracy writes not to do cluster feedings after the age of 8 weeks. Should I use the cluster feedings when he has short naps in the afternoon?

I cluster fed DS til about 9 months - if it ain't broke, don't fix it I didn't do the DF though as it disturbed his sleep...

[orit78]

OK - so though it has good potential the night wasn't so great...
I fed him at 23:15. I BF so I'm not sure how much he ate. At 3:10 he woke up and I was a bit disappointed - I mean, 4 hours??? I had it when he was few weeks old - so how come??? I gave him his paci and I think I gave it another time during this hour till at 4:10 I fed him. But he didn't eat much... and he pooped. I think this is what bothered him??? Anyway, I was too tired and didn't even change his diaper (yes, I'm a terrible mom) - just didn't want him to fully wake up! and then at about 6:45 he moved and seemed as he will woke up. I took him next to me so that he'll extend his sleep (I really didn't think he's hungry). At 7:45 he fully woke and I BF. Again - he hardly ate. So the next meal was at 11:00 when he woke up from his morning nap...
I know he's small but at this age both my DDs slept much more. The only difference is that I didn't BF them - and their weight was a bit higher.
Am I doing something wrong? God, I'm just getting too tired...

[becj86]

He could be going through a growth spurt - there's one around this age. He could also be getting more efficient at eating (making you think he's not eating as much).

[orit78]

no, I don't think so, since he had this growth spurt 2 weeks ago. I can't tell with this guy. The basic things that babies should do - eat and sleep - are things that he's not so good at 
I'm very confused with him and the fact that he doesn't gain much weight is quite depressing 'cause he stays little and I don't know whether this affects his sleep at night

[katie80]

Sorry about the APOP terminology. I should have explained that.

I cluster fed DS too way past 8 weeks, mostly because it just happened naturally. I always feed before bedtime, because it's my favorite feed of the day (we're both relaxed, it's a nice way to wind down before BT, and it's often the only feed besides NFs that we're alone, so no distractions). Anyway, the BT feed often came within 2 hr of the last feed, so that's just how it worked out.

He's definitely at the age where he's probably getting more efficient, so he may not be doing the little feeds you think he is. Since you didn't BF your daughters, have you met with a lactation consultant at all or gotten any BF support? It doesn't always come as naturally as some people claim and there can definitely be a learning curve. This might help with your concern about his weight gain as well.

I know you're frustrated with 4 hr, but I would say the normal range for this age is probably right around 4-6 hr.  And not every night is the same... some may be 4 hr some may be 6, every once in a while you may get an 8.  They should stretch out on their own over time.  If you're not sure he's taking much at the DF, you can always drop it for a few days to a week and see if that makes any difference. Then, you can go to bed earlier too.

[becj86]

I'm very confused with him and the fact that he doesn't gain much weight is quite depressing 'cause he stays little and I don't know whether this affects his sleep at night

My little guy was sleeping pretty well at night (12hr night with 2 NF's still at that age) and only small, so I don't think size is necessarily an issue. Are you tracking his growth on an EBF chart from the World Health Organisation? A lot of doctors still use the old FF charts and the poor BF mummies think they're not feeding their babies enough
Out of interest, how big is he?

[orit78]

well, thing is my expectations were different, and I guess this is my fault  His two sisters slept much more at night with no feedings at his age...
Tonight it was one of the worst but first I'll aswer all the questions:
1. I've seen BF consultant in the beginning especially since he took him 4 weeks to gain back his birth weight. He was born on week 39 at the weight of 2.5 kg.
2. I saw the EBF charts - he's still small He was yesterday 4.280 kg at the age of 3.5 months, but this is his growth.
3. Yesterday at the DF he got his first bottle of formula. After being at the doctor and after thinking of it I've decided I'll try to combine between BF and formula feeding.

So - yeaterday he had a 1.15 min nap in the morning. I've noticed that in the mornings his EASY cycle is more like 3.15-3.30. Then his 2nd nap was 2.15 min but that's because I had to extend it. After 20 mins since he fell asleep he seemed to wake up because something bothered him. I could see that he moves and do faces of discomfort. I used the paci and in the coming hour his nap wasn't smooth. I had to watch him carefully. After an hour I used the colic medicine and then he slept for about an extra hour with no interfere from my side. Unfortunatelly in the afternoon he slept only 35 min and then from the hour of 17:25 I had to make him awake. I used the cluster feeding (BF at 15:20, 17:30 and 19:10). Then DH gave him the DF with the formula and he ate 80 ml (which is quite good for him).
Unfortunately, he woke up at 1:30 AM and since I knew he ate well at 23:00 I gave him the paci. Then he woke at 3:10 and also replug the paci. The same thing was at 4:10 (then I also gave him the colic medicine) and at 5:45 then finally at 6:20 I BF him. He got back to sleep (I admit he slept next to me - once again APOP - I've learned to use this term ).
I just felt that he's not that hungry but I can't explain it - just my instincs. But to tell the truth - I'm worried. I'm not sure whether the paci hasn't become a prop...
On the other hand - I believe that if he was hungry he wouldn't fell asleep all the times. Wasn't? WDYT? I just don't want him to be one of those babies that keep waking up at night. I've had 2 successful EASY stories with my girls, and somehow her it doesn't really work....