My 6.5mo thinks sleep is for losers!

[minty007]

He keeps trying to pull himself up to standing so maybe that's the cause...?

It could be a WW. It feels like just as we get over one WW, another one starts!

[becj86]

Yes, between teething, milestones physical and mental and the odd illness, there's not a lot of time when everything's going perfectly with a young child...

[minty007]

Hi Ladies,

I have a quick question for you if that's ok...

So I've been trying to stick to the EASY routine and it's going pretty well so far in the daytime. His naps are getting more regular in time and duration and I think he's happier for it.

The night-times, however, are still a mess. He's going down to sleep ok after a bottle (I know this isn't strictly EASY but he REFUSES to drink it any earlier and if I don't get it down him he'll just wake after an hour hungry). I always put him down sleepy but awake and he settles pretty quickly to sleep. It's the NW that are causing problems still. He generally used to sleep until around 12-1am when I'd often feed him, but recently he's been waking at 10.30pm and is REALLY hard to re-settle. I try not to feed him as I don't think he should be hungry that soon, but he holds out for a BF I think and despite PU/PD will stay awake until midnight when I eventually cave and feed him just to get some sleep.

He'll then generally sleep until 3.30-4.30am ish when he wakes up and won't go back to sleep. He'll sometimes cry when he wakes but seem to be unable to get comfortable or drift off again despite everything we try (including pain meds as I thought it might be teething but it made no difference). He ususally stays awake for 1.5-2hours then, even if I feed him or do any kind of APOP you can think of ;-). PU/PD worked at first but now he just laughs when you put him down, settles for a minute then cries again until you pick him up....rinse and repeat for an hour.

I can't work out whether he's OT or UT as he seems to flit between the two...? His wu and bt are consistent, as are his naps now, but every night he'll be awake for at least 2 hours at some point in the night and none of my old tricks to settle him seem to work any more.

I would try W2S but the times aren't consistent. He is still having 2 NF at this point as well, even though I'm pretty sure he could go without at least one of them but he's back to taking a good feed each time so now I'm doubting myself...

His naps look like this now:

7am wu
9.30-10am nap for 1.5 hours
2.30-3pm nap for 1.5 hours
7pm bt

Any advice or idea would be great. I feel like the days have become so much better but the nights are steadily getting worse!!

[becj86]

but he holds out for a BF I think and despite PU/PD will stay awake until midnight when I eventually cave and feed him just to get some sleep.

I totally understand the needing to get the child to sleep after 1.5hr of NW, but you caving without him sleeping is teaching him that is he cries long enough, you will feed him. Its important that he goes to sleep, even if only for 5mins before you feed him so as not to reinforce that message.

What happens NW-wise if you feed him at 10:30 when he wakes?
Have you introduced any new solid foods? A new mealtime?

How are his feeds in the day?

[minty007]

I totally understand the needing to get the child to sleep after 1.5hr of NW, but you caving without him sleeping is teaching him that is he cries long enough, you will feed him. Its important that he goes to sleep, even if only for 5mins before you feed him so as not to reinforce that message.

You're totally right, I know. I suppose I just get exhausted and frustrated and nursing him seems like the easiest option....I know it isn't in the long run so I need to man-up a bit and stick to my guns.

If I feed him when he first wakes he'll go straight back to sleep usually but will still wake 3 hours later (ish) anyway, so I'm pretty sure it isn't actually about hunger. He's still having three meals a day but has become much less interested in solids in the past week for some reason and it's a struggle to get him to eat much. He's nursing a bit more regularly than before though to make up for it I assume.

He usually BF on waking, unless he's had a NF at 5/6am in which case he isn't hungry (this is happening more often than not lately)
breakfast at 8am (with BF after if he hasn't fed already)
BF at 11.30
Lunch at 12.15
Bottle of formula or EBM at 2pm (usually around 4-6oz)
dinner at 5pm
Bottle before bed at 6/6.30
BT 7pm

I haven't introduced anything new that I can think of. He is teething a bit but it doesn't seem bad enough to explain the NW IYKWIM?

He doesn't BF for very long in the day so I don't know whether he's trying to make up the calories at night as he seems to feed better then. He's so distractible that I've been trying to feed him in a dim, quiet room to help but it's still a challenge. He drinks better from a bottle so do you think I should try transitioning to more bottles in the day to see if that helps?

[becj86]

Reading through, before I even saw the comment about him teething I was going to ask about teething. Honestly, that's exactly what happens with DS when he's teething - he eats little to no solids, BF's more frequently and wakes more often at night and won't settle without a feed which I usually just do when he's teething. If he's not feeding as much in the day, he may well be hungry.

Maybe try bottles during the day or at least at BT or a cluster feed to help him get a longer stretch going at night. No harm in that I wouldn't have though. Are you feeding him when he wakes from naps so he's still drowsy? Have you tried feeding him, giving him 10-15mins to play with whatever has him fascinated and feeding again to try and up the calories in the day?

Are you medicating for teething pain before bed?

[minty007]

Thanks - I did wonder if it was teething as sometimes it seems like he's desperate to go to sleep but can't get comfortable yk?

I'm offering him a feed when he wakes but he will usually only do a minute or two before he wants to be off exploring. He'll often feed the best about 30mins to an hour before his naps but I've been careful not to let it get too close to sleep times as I don't want to make the feed-to-sleep prop any more of an issue than it is in the night. I will try to be more persistent in offering during the day and trying the 10-15mins of play during a staggered feed like you suggest.

We have medicated before bed a couple of times but tbh it didn't seem to make much difference. We are hoping to move within the next two weeks when we'll start transitioning him to his own room as I really think (well, am really hoping!) that his sleep is disturbed by us to some degree, particularly as the first wake-up often happens within 10mins of me going to bed. I'm hoping that he'll settle better on his own in the night too if he can't see us as soon as he wakes, as during his naps he sometimes wakes but self-settles and I wonder if it's because I'm not in the room so he doesn't feel the need to call out to me and so just goes back to sleep. At night I've seen him lift his head to look for us and if he sees either of us move or make a sound he starts to whinge for us, but if we 'play dead' he'll sometimes settle back to sleep. Unfortunately OH snores quite badly so that doesn't help either!

Thanks so much for your suggestions - I'll try to get more food into him in the day and see if teething meds help tonight as the description of what your LO does when teething is exactly what my LO is doing now so maybe that's the cause.

[becj86]

I really think (well, am really hoping!) that his sleep is disturbed by us to some degree, particularly as the first wake-up often happens within 10mins of me going to bed.

This could be at least part of the issue - if LO's sleep is disturbed during the first part of the night, they can wake more often through the rest of the night. Can you try going to bed at a different time - 15mins either side of usual time and see if you catch him in a different part of his sleep cycle and he's not disturbed as much?

as during his naps he sometimes wakes but self-settles and I wonder if it's because I'm not in the room so he doesn't feel the need to call out to me and so just goes back to sleep. At night I've seen him lift his head to look for us and if he sees either of us move or make a sound he starts to whinge for us, but if we 'play dead' he'll sometimes settle back to sleep. Unfortunately OH snores quite badly so that doesn't help either!

Totally agree that having him in his own room should help - DS is across the hall and can see me from his bed but if I'm 'asleep', he tends to settle himself quite happily. I did have to learn not to intervene too quickly - really listen to the cries and try not to jump in when he's mantra crying.

[minty007]

So we had a similar night last night except this time I had gone to bed earlier but he woke up at 11.30pm, I fed him as he hadn't fed much before bed and it had been 4.5hours, but he wouldn't go back to sleep until 1am!

He has this cycle where he seems to get sleepy, eyes closed and relaxed, then starts fidgeting around and wakes himself up again, so he cries because he's tired and wants to be asleep, I put my hand on him and soothe him, and the whole cycle starts again.

I thought it was teething so I've been giving him pain meds before bed and if he wakes and seems uncomfortable, but it doesn't seem to make any difference.

Could it be OT? I know the wakings are supposed to be earlier in the evening but I'm clutching at straws really. His naps have been pretty good so I'm not sure if it makes sense that he could be OT, but it just seems that he's 'wired' at night when he wakes and just can't settle himself, even though he often does self-settle when he wakes during naps in the day so i know he can do it. I'm sure that it's probably us disturbing him that makes him wake, but I don't understand why he's so impossible to settle again in the night...it NEVER takes 2 hours to settle him to sleep at any other time, and he MUST be tired surely?

Anyway, I did a slightly earlier BT tonight to see if that helps, so he's been asleep since 6.45pm and has stirred once or twice but I haven't had to go in yet so fingers crossed fo a better night.

Thanks again for all your help - it is much appreciated :-)

[becj86]

Could it be OS? Is someone coming home and revving him up just before bed?

Wired at night is usually either OS; UT - happy and awake, doesn't want to settle; or chronically OT - wants to settle but can't.

[minty007]

It could be I suppose...OH comes home around 6pm usually but tries not to OS him by being low-key. Plus he's just been off work for two weeks and if anything LO's sleep has been worse.

I'm veering towards chronic OT atm. He was awake from 2am-5.15am last night, trying to settle but he just couldn't, then slept until 8am this morning so his EASY is a bit off today. He's just woken from his first nap after only 40mins too and despite a bit of APOP I couldn't get him back down. Going to try to get in a good pm nap and maybe an early BT tonight to see if that helps. That plus pain meds for teeth and crossed fingers and toes.

[becj86]

Chronic OT is best treated with long nights (early bedtime means the OT EW becomes a NW and easier to settle, mainly because you're a bit more motivated ).

Sleep can just be off from OH being home too - used to wish DH would just stay at work at one point around this age because DS slept like an angel when he wasn't home and was a nightmare when he was home... DH does constructive stuff when he gets home - bath, dressing, etc. getting ready for bed so he gets some daddy-time but still gets to bed at a reasonable hour and has a BF before bed in which to calm down a bit...

[minty007]

Thanks!

Going to try for some early BTs and see if that helps.

I was also starting to count down the days until OH went back to work. It's great having him around but it does make it harder to stick to a good routine which doesn't help.

LO has just fallen asleep after a short A time of 2 hrs but he only had a very short am nap so going to see if I can get him to do 1.5-2 hrs and do an early BT. I'll update tomorrow - hopefully with good news ;-)

[minty007]

Morning all,

So, just to update, our days have been brilliant. Good restorative naps at the same times each day with minimal fussing, and he wakes up happy.

The nights are continuing to be completely unpredicatble though. I've done a few early BTs which seem to have helped him wake up more rested in the morning and have extended his nights somewhat to help with what i thought was chronic OT, which is fine, but he is still waking up at some point in the night (completely random times now) and staying awake for 2 hours no matter what we do. He'll often need a feed after around 5-6hrs which I'm happy with but then he'll often wake again at a later point in the night and is just...awake. Not unhappy, not crying until the end of the 2 hours, just laying there talking and wriggling around.

I've tried just leaving him to see what happens (he's in our room so i can see him) and he just blows raspberries and chats to himself whilst playing with his cot toys for a while, but then seems to get bored or tired or something and will cry for attention, but is happy to continue playing once he knows you're awake and there.

His teeth don't seem to be bothering him that much in the day but we will medicate him if needed. It now looks like UT behaviour but I'm completely stumped as to whether this can be the case when I was so sure it was OT a while back.....? Can it be that the early BTs have now made him UT?

Our EASY is as follows:

WU 7am and BF
8am breakfast
activity - playmat or jumperoo
9.45-10am nap for 1.5 hours
11.30am small BF
12.30 lunch
activity - usually errands or a walk
2.30pm nap for 1.5 hours
4pm BF
5pm dinner
6.30pm bath
7pm bed

Then the random night wakings occur. Usually he's hungry at one or two of them but there'll be another where he's just wide awake and we're then up for at least 2 hours every time before he goes back down - usually somewhere between the hours of 2-5am but it can vary.

Any advice would be great. I'm at a bit of a loss now!

[clazzat]

Are you still doing a df? We had a similar problem with dd1 who had always been a great sleeper before that, and I think that it was because we kept the df for too long and it was disturbing her sleep cycles.