5 mo old - OT wakeups

[Rizzo]

My DS is still a shocker daytime sleeper - chronic catnapper and rarely unable to stretch him to the 2hr A time due to a OT/UT loop, I suspect.
But, the nights are getting worse. He was only having 1-2 wakeups, but now, I am having a real struggle getting him to sleep at night (daytime sleeps are fine - put him on tummy with his hands out, he sucks his thumb and drops off pretty quickly). I thought I would try to put him to sleep about 1 1/4 hrs after his 40min catnap, but it took me an hour to settle him, then he woke after 1 hr, then 40min later, then 1.5 hrs later (which I fed him at). This has happened for the past few nights - have tried to put him down for BT, and he has taken over an hour to settle.
Here is my EASY for today
During the night - woke a few times prior to 11pm, then 1.15am
Woke 6.15ish, up at 6.40 - fed.
S 7.40 - 9.10
E 9.45
S 10.50 - 11.30
E 12.30
S 1.20 - 2.20 (resettled, up at 2.50)
E 3.15
S 4.15 - 4.55
E 5.30, 6pm
BT 6.10, could not settle until 7.20pm
Woken 8.30, 9.20, 10.50 (so far...), Sh pat for first 2 wakeups, fed at 10.50pm

[katie80]

Hi Rizzo, sorry things haven't gotten a lot better for you. I think he's definitely in an UT/OT loop and needs a push in his A times. Here's why... he does a fine morning nap and that's good, but it's on quite a short A time (less than 1.5 hr), so when he does another short A time (1h40m) afterward, he only does a 40 min nap (pretty classic UT).  Then, he does an almost 2hr A time after that short nap and you are able to resettle him to take a full nap (this shows he can do longer and needs a push on those first A times). Finally, he's got the CN and I think 1h15m A afterward wasn't enough, so he fought bedtime and ended up OT. At that age after the CN, my DS could do 1.5hr at least sometimes closer to 2h before BT.

So, I think you need to push him to at least 1h45m A first thing in the morning (by 10-15 min every few days) and then after a good nap push to 2h A for the rest of the day. If he wakes early, resettle. He should be easier to resettle on the longer A times. Average A times for 5 mo is 2-2.5 hr. That's not to say all babies are right there, but I think he's giving you the signs (with the short naps and resettling after a longer A) that he's ready for more. What do you think?

[Rizzo]

I agree. So was going to push him today, but he decides to wake before 5.45 and I fed him at 6am thinking he might go back to sleep (which he did, for 40mins), but then was feral and could barely stretch him out past 1hr 30. Maybe I should have stretched him till 7.30am?
When do I know when to start his morning? He used to have a 12 hr night, so that's what I was basing his morning wakeup from. Plus he usually wakes up and chats when he wants to get up. During the night he cries out. He was chatting before 5.45 this morning...
His bedtime last night was 6.30 (Had the last nap of 1hr 20 waking at 4.30). Went down easily, woke 30mins later but resettled quickly.

[katie80]

Yeah, I think he needs a push even if he's grumpy. The thing with putting him down too early in the morning and then him having a nice long nap is that he's using that as an extension of his night sleep and won't break out of the UT/OT pattern. Push him as much as you can to get to 1h45m and then eventually 2h, resettling OT naps.

Trying for 12hr nights is good, but with two good naps and a CN at 5 mo, he may do only 11-11.5. If he's up earlier, I'd go in quick and try to resettle either with a feed or shh/pat, whatever works or is appropriate at the time. For me, pretty much anything after 6 am, I just treat as morning (unless BT was 8/8:30pm), but that's rare in this house. Does that help at all?

[Rizzo]

Ok. So he woke at 6am, fed and kept awake for 1.45 hrs. Woke after 45? Mins as had pooed. Thought I would try to put him down at 1hr 35mins, but he wouldn't settle. Think he had a second wind then, as couldn't get him down till 2hr 20m. He was really grumpy after an hr being up but I pushed him, and I guess too far... Can't win with this child!!!

[katie80]

Oh shoot, I hate it when poo ruins a sleep. Maybe just shave 5 min off next time and try to have him asleep at 1h30, then? I wouldn't have thought 1h35 would be too, too much. Is he touchy?

[Rizzo]

Yep woke after 30mins and couldn't resettle...
He is sensitive so I guess a bit touchy. Much more laid back than DS1. I will have to do the quiz again.
Is it sensitive to being overtired. Once he gets overtired he is a nightmare to settle.

[katie80]

Hmmm, that's tough. If you know/feel he's heading that way, could you be in the room at the 30 min mark and see if you catch him right away that helps in the resettle? I know that's not always possible with another LO, though.

[Rizzo]

I was in the room. I thought he was going to resettle but he shot his head up 5 mins later!!
Put him down at 1hr 25. Settled well initially, then started crying 5 mins later. Have hand on him now 1hr 40), so hopefully will sleep longer.
He actually took some apple purée yesterday
am and this morning. Have offered before (minimal wt gain, recommended by paed), but he was actually opening his mouth yesterday for food. I don't think it's contributing to the problem... He is 5.5 months, it's not far off 6 months...

[katie80]

Did the ped specifically recommend apple? It is a harder fruit to digest, so it definitely could be a factor. I can't remember if he has any history of reflux. The minimal weight gain and struggles with sleep are what made me wonder. Have you ever discussed it with your ped?

I do really think at almost 6 mo though he needs that push in A time. It's hard if he's touchy and you may have to go slow (like 5-10 min increments), but that is likely the biggest cause of the UT/OT cycle.

[Rizzo]

No, she just said solids. It was a jar of purée apple. We had a shocker day yesterday and he didn't poo till the evening (passed wind alot during day, which is unusual for him). Also quite fussy and (I think) demanding food more.
Wake 5.40 ish. Fed 6.10am
S 7.20-7.50
E 8.50
S 9.25-9.55
E 10.30, top up 11.50
S 12.05-12.35
E 1.50
S 2.10-2.50, still grumpy,
S 4.10-4.50
E 5pm
Bedtime 6.20
Woke 7pm. Resettled with a feed
Woke 10.45 (fed)
Woke 2.45am (fed)
He is having very early wakeups too. I remember when he used to wake at 7am and go to bed at around 7pm...
The other thing is, he is sleeping on his tummy for day naps ( I put him on his tummy, he can find his thumb. He can't seem to resettle during the night on his tummy, so he wakes at his lighter part of sleep. Also he has wet clothes by the morning. Not sure how to get around that problem, but it could have contributed to an early wakeup this morning

[Rizzo]

Dont think its reflux - he used to sleep really well at night. He is gaining weight a little better now, he just went about 6 weeks only gaining 250g. Will hold off on the solids for now.

Tonight was a disaster!! He had 3 naps today (40min, 1hr 20 and then 1hr), waking at 4pm. He went to sleep about 5.45pm (woke this morning about 5.45am), he slept for 30mins and was wide awake. So I thought, maybe I can use it as a catnap and give him a later bedtime? Maybe that might help the early morning wakeups? So, I put him down at 7. 30pm but he wouldnt settle, he slept on and off, then managed to get him to sleep for longer at 9.15pm.

[jennyg33]

Hi, we have been having similar problems with Aarons sleep. He is a couple weeks off 6 months. A couple of things that have worked for us are, I have now got A time to 2 hr 30 mins. When he starts to struggle often about 2 hr 10 I change his nappy to use a few mins up then sit in the dark in the bedroom for 10 mins with him. That way even though he is getting close to OT it helps make sure he is not OS, I make sure he doesn't fall asleep on me. I often have to hold him for last 20 mins of A time. I have reintroduced df as we started getting 2 bf again in night. I have just introduced a lovie which I slept with first for couple of nights to pick up my smell. If the day started after 6 I didn't put down before 8.30. If before 6 then put down at 8. We are now 10 days down the line and things are starting to improve. Just 1 nw for feed at 4 and then slept until 6.30.
I always thought I was good at watching for his sleep ques, but seems now if I put him down at the first signs it is too early and I have to push him. Hope it improves for you soon.

[Rizzo]

Thanks Jenny. Everyday is so different for us.. Just when I think I will stretch him a bit more after he wakes in the morning, he has a bad night, or he wakes early, or something else happens!!
What I will try again tomorrow am.. Will probably have another bad night due to the rocky bedtime!! So much easier when they only have one nap (or none) each day!!

[katie80]

Great ideas from Jenny, she's right on.  He really needs that A time push, hon.  He's starting to wake earlier in the morning, because he's getting to go back to sleep again, sometimes in under 2 hr.  It's still that UT/OT cycle. 

Also, it sounds like the apples definitely bothered him if he didn't poo all day and was quite gassy.  Solids can definitely help, but I'd still push milk at this point and do the really easy to digest solids like pear, sweet potato, squash.

As for the tummy sleeping and wet clothes, we went through that with DS.  What type if diapers do you use, cloth/disposable? I use disposable and buy a brand (Huggies) that makes an overnight diaper, so it's thicker.  I also put him in the next size up when he's getting close to the weight limit.  He hasn't woken wet since about 5mo.  HTH!