DD2 6wks tomorrow - too soon, too late...so many questions!?!

[Ima shel Alon]

That's the way, make one goal at a time and you'll get there.
Do they both have BT at the same time? Would it be possible that one of them goes before the other? I think you will manage to stop the nursing to sleep during the naps, but actually feeding before BT helps a lot with a peaceful night. I know this only complicates things... I don't mean to.

[cre8trixx]

I dont mind nursing before bedtime. Trouble is she goes down around 7 and catnaps. Then she's back right when its time for DD1 to wind down and is sometimes clustering for an hour plus. DH can most often take on DD1s very drawn out BT but she begs for me often & I feel awful. My midwife told me to tend to my first b/c my second won't remember so now im loaded with guilt whenever DD1 seems to need me. I guess I gotta let it go for awhile & let DH run her BT whenever home.

So HOW to break the nurse to sleep habit? I guess I know the tricks of the trade but dread the tears...

[Ima shel Alon]

Well, there will be tears, hon.
You have a few ways of doing it. You could feed at WU in the morning and then you only feed when she wakes from a nap, so she stops associating feeding with sleeping. You then try and settle her for her naps with shh/pat.
There are those links you can have a look at, it's a lot to read but I think if you come prepare for it then you will do better, iykwim:
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=180311.0

http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=85500.0

http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=26672.0

It's important that you are consistent with the way you put her down for naps and that she will have the same WD every time, that way she will learn sleep is coming. You can read about it more here: http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=212645.0

But like I said before, if you REALLY make the decision to stop feeding to sleep then you'll manage. If you are GOING TO TRY IT then you'll probably break with the first cry.
Just make the decision to what is better for the both of you right now and you'll do just fine

About BT, When DD2 wakes up after 45min are you feeding her again? Are you feeding her before BT and then feeding her again after 45min?
Would DH be able to try and settle DD2 so you could be with DD1?

[cre8trixx]

Yeah, I nursed her tonight essentially from 745-945pm. It was killer. Now I need to decide if I let her sleep in tomorrow (a habit that has surface over the past two days) because I know we will likely have a low sleep day tomorrow as we begin no breast to sleep or wake her earlier so she shifts her clock back she used to be down more like 830. So many pieces to the puzzle. Thanks for the reading material. I'm off to grab as much sleep as I can. Cross fingers for me!

[cre8trixx]

Well today started with 8am wake up so no real sleep in decision to make. We had a rough night of breaking free of swaddle which has been the case a lot lately. I'm experimenting with the aussie and one arm out which she seems to want but also interferes. Sleepy signs around 9 after 8:30 nursing. We wound down with a swaddle, paci & song in chair with her a bit more upright so as not to assume cradling meant nursing. As soon as I put her down she cried. I tried shh/pat in the crib and out with no luck. She fought the paci but eventually accepted it again. I also ended up using a trick my hubby discovered which involves cradling her with a paci and gently rocking her bum (seems wierd, I know but it soothes her...I can't imagine doing this for long given her already 13lb size and am pretty sure Tray would not approve of adding more motion but...) Once she calmed and eyes were closing I put her in the crib on her side (makes me nervous but it is clearly her preference) so she could hold onto the paci and gently slowed the bum rocking til she drifted. No breast, accomplished yet every other prop on the planed was added to do so I fear this is not a solution but a band aid. We will see where it goes from here...

[Ima shel Alon]

yet every other prop on the planed was added to do so

That's a great accomplishment!!! Take a moment to be proud of yourself, mommy.

But, you are right, if you keep on doing that you are creating a prop. You have two options, as far as I can see, you can either do all settling when she is in the crib and no matter what is happening you leave her there. Well, no, that sounded harsh you only pick her up when you feel crying is too much, and then you let her settle in your arms (no rocking) and when is calms down you put her down again. I can tell you that in the first day I did pat/shh I sat next to DS maybe 45min till he fell asleep - but he soon got the idea.
Your other option is to do GW, so you keep on doing what you do for a few days and after that you start just cradling, no movement, then bed and after a few days you stop the bum patting, then bed. You simply break off the prop to "pieces" and every few days take one piece off.

[cre8trixx]

I'm afraid shh/pat doesn't settle her which is why I tried the butt rock second nap was worse...refusing the pacifier but eventually settling again with the rocking from shoulder to crib. both naps have been 40 MINS (is that OT or UT usually?) though she tried to settle herself with her hands this last time but was awakened by a jolt...hence the swaddle dilemma. She already seems to be a bit pf a snacker but should I be feeding between these short naps? It becomes 2hrs in between. Thanks again for the support!

[cre8trixx]

Ps sleepy signs are less clear. Is there a rule for A time after short naps? All the info is blurring!

[Ima shel Alon]

She is still very young, so it could well may be she is not responding to pat/shh. What do you think about the GW suggestion?
OT naps when stopping feeding to sleep are almost unavoidable. You did great today, really. I think that in a few naps she will know that there is no milk coming before naps and will sleep longer for her naps.
Could you stretch the feeds longer than the 2h? Could you do EASAE?

You could try and put her for a nap 15min earlier than a normal A would be after a short nap.

[cre8trixx]

Third nap was the worst of the day...45mins to settle and only with bum rock in arms to crib (still awake) where paci had to be included while gently rocking her bum on her side for sleep to finally come. The rest of our day will likely be in the carrier since we need to pick up big sis soon.

I'm confused, I thought shh/pat was meant for LOs in these early months then pu/pd comes later say around 4mos (which she will be in just one more month - yikes!)? I can try the GW method and just focus on no nurse before nap but bum rock from arms to crib is ok as is paci when needed. (I find the whole paci thing bizarre as I thought this would be the key to success on getting her off the nurse to sleep but it seems of limited interest. I was hopeful this might be a useful prop in getting her to transition to daycare sleep.)

I have to say I sometimes wonder if I'm just interfering too much and if I just took a step back she might surprise me. I imagine at this point there would be crying - does the mantra factor in this young? It's just that there have been those few miraculous moments where she's done a 2hr nap or gotten herself back down or even just dozed off all on her own - one of each in her lifetime I'm thinking  Still...

The swaddle seems to upset her every time I begin to wrap her up and not one variation (aussie, one arm out, both arms at her side) seems to be doing me any favors these days since she always finds her way fully out! I dream of dropping it altogether but then I watch her at nap wakings and she seems to get in her own way. Stragely at her NWs between 3-6am she can claw at her face feverishly and still stay essentially in dreamland (I can't because I worry so much that I watch her like a hawk but SHE can - crazy kid!)

It's just that I feel as if I'm lacking a concrete plan when we get in there. As soon as she starts wailing I decide whatever I'm doing is just not working and start changing my technique which of course blows consistency out of the water. There's a 45min limit right? After that we either move onto a very short A or (AP to sleep because she really needs it!?!) I just worry the more exhausted I let her become the more she will unravel (as will I) and this won't ever work. Yet even as I type that I know that I need to give us both time for this to sink in.

Ok, enough. You have said it before and I know I need to celebrate the baby steps. While we may have added some props today she has napped sans breast so that's a start. Breathing over here...and truly grateful to you for all your counsel

[new mum01]

Hi JM, I've just been reading all through this thread!

How old is your baby now? Is she going to daycare? (just being nosy).. My LO is 13 weeks so I think probably around the same age.

[Ima shel Alon]

I found that pat/shh worked best for babies age 5-6 months. Before that I and many others mommies I see here just have to AP some way or another. IMO PU/PD is for much later on, when pat/shh doesn't work anymore, we for example, started it around 9m when we noticed the pat/shh keeps him awake
It could be that you go in too early. What I did was to go out of the room as soon as DS was down and listen. If he cried I still listened to hear if it's mantra or not and only went in when he did the "I need you" cry. If you are in doubt then it's probably mantra The "I need you" cry is very obvious, your mommy instincts will not let you stay outside when you hear it.

Can I suggest something? I might be wrong, but give it a thought.
I think you are tackling a lot of things at the same time and what I am reading between the lines is despair. Am I right?
When I was at your place I didn't extend naps. I found it emotionally tiring and it anyway worked very few times. I felt like all I do all day long is deal with his sleep. Whenever he woke up early from a nap I popped him in the buggy and we went for a walk, that way I could still have some Y time while pushing him. Well, sort of. Maybe it's just too much you are aiming for at the same time. Perhaps start by not feeding to sleep, establishing sleep routine and maybe then you can extend (and I bet by then she'll extend it herself )

[cre8trixx]

All I truly wanted to accomplish right now was establishing her ability to sleep without the breast which I did manage yesterday adding many other props but just caved on today as she seemed legitimately hungry. (All this was after an unexpected carrier nap this morning when my 3yo refused to go to school unless I took her - twas a full on tantrum to book end sleep after last nite's tantrum when she wouldn't go to bed without me. I'm beginning to realize chaos may just have to be the norm.) Given what DD1 is going through, I may move DD2s daycare transition start date up one week since she is 12wks already launching our work/school life sooner which may be the best for everyone at this point. It's clear DD1 knows we are home all day and is feeling her own form of isolation. I really wanted to support DD2 through her transition to napping without Mommy but sleep training all day followed by juggling both their needs and DD1s obvious SA may just send me over the edge. Yes, there's despair here. Plenty of it unfortunately. I have no village (family/friend support) and DH can only offer so much comfort to our girls right now. I sometimes wish we had hired a nanny so I would feel there were more hands on deck. I have no clue how I will manage working full time along with the needs of my family (no clue when the dinner can be prepped for example) but I suppose only time will tell.

Off to grab a much needed shower. To top it all off NY humidity is brutal today!

[Ima shel Alon]

I know what's it like to be far from family and friends and have no support. I gave birth to Alon in a foreign country and till he was 8 months all it was just DH and me. So I feel for you and admire you at the same time, because you have TWO.
I only have one child but I heard that the transition to a second child is difficult and takes time. When I Alon was born and I was so alone I just said to myself I have to take one day at a time. I didn't always managed and like you I felt despair on a regular basis. But, like I am sure you know from your first one, things get better. They will still be hard and there will still be a lot to do, but they will be better.
Please don't feel bad about feeding her to sleep today, you did the right thing if you thought she is hungry. There is always tomorrow to try again and the day after and it's never late. I tried sleep training a few times till I was able to handle it. I was a wrack and the crying was too much for me, but at some point I was strong enough to not stress over the sleep training and we did good.
I hope that going to day care will actually be a solution for this situation and that everyone will benefit from it. My cousin had horrible sleep problems with her DD (far worse than any of us have, I think) and she said to me that once her DD was in day care her life changed, because there was the right stimulation there for her and things were going on around that it all tired her and she slept then very well. She was also a bit anxious about her DD sleeping in day care but there was no problem. Those people are professionals, they have put hundreds, if not thousands of babies to sleep.
I send you many (((hugs))).

[cre8trixx]

How old is your baby now? Is she going to daycare? (just being nosy).. My LO is 13 weeks so I think probably around the same age.

Sorry for the delayed reply newmum01 LO is 13 wks this week and starting daycare in a week or so. We are now somewhat successfully off the breast to sleep but only with the help of the pacifier. At least I now know her caregivers will have options and my husband CAN try to put her down so I can give DD1, who has severe separation anxiety right now, a bit more of her mama. Baby steps

Once she seems to have more control over her fingers, I will try to pull the plug since she is already trying to self soothe with them. Since she has yet to get there On her own I stand by with the paci til she seems to really need it. It's a delicate balance, one arm out, one arm Aussie swaddle, a bit on one side with paci supported by swaddled hand as needed. In time I know we will have to tackle this fully but I'm hopeful with a few more months under our belts we will all be more ready. At the moment DD1 takes nearly 1.5 accompanied hours to settle after Lights out. DD2 has to cluster for nearly the same amount of time beforehand. (I'm just hopeful I will make it through in one piece since the three hours of bedtime leaves time for little else at nite.) I imagine as everyone gets more adjusted to our new addition, we will be able to tackle independent sleep for them both further. I dream of the day when they share a room and bedtimes coincide!