Nap discipline

[Ninou]

Dear all,

My daughter is 17mo now. She is not going to sleep by her own still. In the evening she falls asleep in her bed, but she needs us being their. But evenings are better as she is tired enough to fall asleep.

With a day nap its a mess. I have re-read recently Tracy book where she says the most important is to be consistent and also show a kid that you make rules (trying to discipline). So i do not know how to proceed now. How usually our nap goes:

Around the same time a day we know that she is getting tired and she shows all the signs. We start to wind down, she can be relaxed and yarning when we prepare her for the nap. Once we put her in bed she starts crying or jumping even thought she is tired. Usually we try a bit and we get her out, we try again to put her to bed in half an hour or so. This can be for couple of times after which we rock her into sleep and put to bed.

I see I am not giving her a clear sign that she should go to bed. Today i tried not to change my opinion and to end up by her falling a sleep. I had the worse tantrum ever. She got really hysteric asking me to go out of the room (yarning and being tired though), she really got hysteric, fighting me, screeming till being very very red etc. I end up walking a bit out of her bedroom with her. I than came back to her bedroom and she started again a tantrum. That repeated couple of times but she ended up to fall asleep in her room.

I am not sure this is the right way to do. How do I deal with tantrums in this situation? Because she gets so upset she can not calm down no more (at the same time, once out of the room she is directly quite).  I never saw her so upset and I am afraid I can damage her health. At the same time we are really out of the energy no more to put her to sleep and waking up couple of times a night since she is born....

Can you please advise for the daily naps?

Many thanks

Nina

[katie80]

Hi Nina,
First off, this can be a really tough age for naps.  (((Hugs))) for your struggles.  I think you have a couple issues coming into play here.  One is, if she's not yet learned independent sleep, she is definitely going to fight you when you change things on her.  The other is, she may need a bit of a routine adjustment.  At this age, if a LO goes down for a nap either too early (UT) or too late (OT), they tend to fight it. 

So, would you first post what a typical day looks like for her, i.e. what time she wakes up, what time you attempt a nap, and what time she goes to bed? It may be that just a little change to one or two of those can help her learn independent sleep easier.

Then, you need to pick a method to use with her and really stick to it.  Here is some info on techniques that are used most often in BW:
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=80750.0
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=63896.0
Since she's not been an independent sleeper previously, I would likely go with GW.  You will need to be *very* consistent with her, as she's obviously a fighter and in the past you've always ended up taking her out of the room after a bit, so in her mind she thinks if she fights enough, you'll eventually take her out and then finally help her get to sleep. Yes, she will scream and fight and get really mad, but she's not in danger of hurting herself if she's safely in her crib and you are in the room.  She is doing those things because you are not doing what she wants, not because there is something wrong with her.  If you stay calm and soothing and don't let her get you worked up, she will eventually realize this is the new way of doing things and she might as well go to sleep.  I'd try to have her fall asleep for 45min-1hr; if she doesn't, take her out of the crib, let her play quietly for an hour and then try again. If she still doesn't fall asleep, take her either for a drive or stroll to get some sleep into her (a CN: 30-45min) so she's not too OT at bedtime.  Don't go back and rock with her though, or you're still reinforcing that she doesn't need to go to sleep on her own at naptime, iykwim.

I won't lie and tell you it will be easy, but it is definitely doable and I will tell you that you will feel very confident and proud when she learns how to fall asleep all by herself.  What do you think? Does it sound like something you're up to?  We will support you and help you all the way through, if you choose to do it!

[Ninou]

Dear Katie,

Thank you very much for your reply. Its a bit hard to put her current EASY as its completely messed up She started to go to creche 3 days a week and also currently she has her next 2 teeth coming. I will try to post EASY as soon as we are back on track.

I understood we need to choose betwen WIWO and GW. My problem is that i do not know which one to choose. Its true that she never fall consistently to sleep by her own, but we had still some times when she did so. We tried recently WIWO and what I have observed that she gets so upset that anyway we end up staying in her room waiti wng till she falls asleep. Before WIWO she was falling asleep in her bed while we were lying on the floor next to her and reading her a book, or just by being their, not touching her at all.  Now when WIWO ends with us being in her room she demand to touch her all the time - I think that is because we broke her trust. Is it so?

My problem with doing GW is when we are in the room she really gets wild, she jumps in the bed, I think she gets more exited by seeing us. And when she "cryies" a bit during WIWO she self sooth herself a bit and she falls easier asleep as she is more tired. So i would love to do GW but I have impression it exites her more than calms down...

So recently we always start with WIWO which always ends up in being their with her. And she is upset and we are also and I feel I am not at all consistent.

I just can not understant which approach to use and to which one to stick ((

Nina

[katie80]

(((Hugs))) hon, it's definitely hard to be consistent when they are so upset, but that is what's really going to help you right now. 

In my opinion, I think you should do GW, as you end up staying in the room with her when you do WIWO.  Do you have a winddown routine that you follow?  I would go through that, tell her that it's time to sleep, then place her in the crib and sit or lie on the floor.  I would try not to make eye contact with her, likely face away from her, and just use a flat, soothing voice repeating that she needs to lie down and go to sleep.  I'm sure she will be agitated and a bit wild, but as long as you don't respond to that wildness, she will learn that she needs to lie down and fall asleep.  If she needs that extra reassurance of your touch, you can offer your hand through the crib as you sit on the floor. 

It sounds like she's got a lot going on with starting creche and cutting teeth.  If you need to take a break and let things settle down a bit, you sure can, but I think those things make it even more important that she has some consistency.  What do you think?

[Shiv52]

When you say she hasn't consistently been an independent sleeper what do you mean?  WI/WO is only a tool to be used really with totally independent sleepers who have got off track with illness or teeth or whatever.  Otherwise GW is the best approach.

HTH

[Truly Blessed]

Honey, super advise from the Ladies 

Just to add that WI/WO didn't work for Sam until he was much older and he used to react worse the following evening after every attempt. Some LO's just deal better with GW, so maybe this is the case for her too  . IIWM I would do GW  But then I am a serious GW lover LOL 

Vicki.x.

[katie80]

Hi Nina, just coming back on to apologize and say that I indeed was mistaken about using WIWO.  I knew that it wasn't recommended, but didn't realize that it actually could break trust if a LO hasn't been fully sleep trained.  As these ladies have suggested, I too agree that GW is the best route forward.  I hope I haven't totally confused you!

[Ninou]

Dear Ladies thank you very much for your answers.

Katie, there is no problem at all, all things I am messing up its because of myself  

When I say that she was never an independent sleeper, I mean that since she is 6mo we needed to learn her these skills. We messed up a lot with teeth coming, her being sick etc but I still think we made a good way from rocking and night feedings to her falling asleep in her bed. I think we are really close to develop a good habit but a bit stuck in the final steps. We always used Tracy techniques (ssh patting, Pu/PD). When she is not sick she can sleep  5 - 6 hours in a row at night, with only 1NW.

These days waiting for an answer we were continuing with WIWO a bit and she felt asleep couple of time completely by herself with me being out of the room (never with hysterical crying, only a little bit of self soothing crying or calling me, maximum 5 minutes). But what she does now, she does not cry at all, she just keep calling me: mama, mama, mama - I find it much more difficult to resist. As if I do not go, I feel like breaking her trust ....

My question for the GW: when she goes to bed, she starts using the tricks to be taken out of the bed: asking to drink, aksing for a potty, asking to read a book, etc. I give a drink, I take her out for the potty (in 90% of cases there is nothing), but than, if I stay in room with her, should I just ignore that she is asking me for these things? And if she really wants to drink?

So I really do not know how to continue, I like idea of GW a lot and you all support it, but do not I disturb her more while doing it? And if she felt asleep couple of times with WIWO, does not it mean we better continue this way?

Dear all, thank you again for answers. I am really happy to find a place where there is so much support and love....

[katie80]

But what she does now, she does not cry at all, she just keep calling me: mama, mama, mama - I find it much more difficult to resist. As if I do not go, I feel like breaking her trust ....

Yes, that is so hard when they start calling for you.  My DD did that at this age as well.  But, if she's not crying an 'I need you' cry, it's usually best to not respond to that.  You are not breaking her trust if it is more of a mantra.  If you just cannot bear it, you can assure her one more time that it's time to go to sleep, you love her very much, and you'll see her when she wakes up. 

if I stay in room with her, should I just ignore that she is asking me for these things? And if she really wants to drink?

As for the tricks, this is really common.  I'm assuming you have a winddown routine and I would start including all of those things in it.  Take her potty, read a book, give her a drink.  Then, when she starts asking, let her know that you've already done all those things and it's time to go to sleep.  If she continues to ask, you can respond every once in a while, but yes, basically you'll need to ignore it.  If you think she really is thirsty, you can offer her a sippy cup of water in the corner of her crib.  She may play with it more than go to sleep the first few days, but the novelty should wear off.  I never went that far, as I just didn't want to deal with it and my DD was fine with me just telling her there were no more drinks (I made sure she had the chance to get enough before bed).

So I really do not know how to continue, I like idea of GW a lot and you all support it, but do not I disturb her more while doing it?

If you remain consistent and 'boring', not engaging in the resistance, I don't think you'll be disturbing her more.  If you feel like your presence is a bit much for her, you can always just sit at the door and reassure her with your voice.  I think the key with using GW, is that she hasn't been an independent sleeper yet and as you want to maintain her trust, even though it may be a bit more difficult to stay in there in the beginning, it is important for you to be there.

[Ninou]

Dear Katie,

Incorporating potty + drinking + book in her routine is a great suggestion.

Today we went back to GW. I will rebuilt a bit her trust for couple of days with reading books (she falls asleep during this).  After my idea is to stop book earlier that she is asleep and to pretend being asleep just lying near her bed (no eye contact).

My question is: do I need  first to wait till she learns to fall asleep like this or for example I try 2-3 days just lying near her bed and after this I go step further (e.g. mooving more far away from her bed).  So, doing each step - do i always move to the next step when she learned to fall asleep within new situation, or I give 2-3 days for each step and move on even if progress is not there?

Sorry for all these questions but we really want to do it properly this time.                                   

[katie80]

Sorry for all these questions but we really want to do it properly this time.                                   

No problem, that's what we're here for!

So, doing each step - do i always move to the next step when she learned to fall asleep within new situation, or I give 2-3 days for each step and move on even if progress is not there?

TBH, I'm not exactly sure as I've never done a full GW myself.  I would be inclined to wait til she falls asleep at each stage and then move back, but I could be wrong.  I think Vicki is a bit of a self-proclaimed GW lover/expert , so maybe she will chime in with what she did.

Keep up the good work, Nina, and keep us posted!

[Truly Blessed]

Hiya,

Sorry, got a new improved internet hub and it didn't work so man just left and just back on line 

With GW it can often take 3 days or so before LO adjusts but with Sam I always move on as soon as he is dealing with the current situation. The thing with GW is if you try to move forward and the reaction from LO is unfavourable you can just move back again, so there's no harm in trying. I always remember when I did Sam's initial PD training and then GW straight after that the Ladies said I would try to step out of the room, and it was really early on. I didn't want to at all, but I did and Sam didn't cry and I was out. So you just never know. On the flip side I have had some Ladies do GW and get stuck too long at one stage and then before you know it you're a 'prop' so it really is important to read your LO using your 'Mother's Instinct' and move forward when you judge her to be ready.

I hope that helps.x.

[Ninou]

Dear all,

Yes it helps very much. A small update: we are now trying GW for couple of days for the Nap and for the Bed-time. Yesterday i have moved further from her bed and it went OK. She stood up only once and after I put her back she was just lying in the bed and felt asleep. I think we will do it couple of days more and than I will move closer to the door.

In the night we still give her a bottle for 1 feeding and at around 5 we take her in our bed. But we decided to first deal with Nap and Bedtime falling asleep and afterwards to deal with her 2 NW's

Many thanks for support

Nina

[Truly Blessed]

Great update Nina, keep it up Hun 

x.

[katie80]

Great update Nina, keep it up Hun

Ditto! Well done both of you!