Twins - one EW, one lots of NW. Desperate for advice

[g-babies]

Hi
Hope you ladies may be able to help me, my 2 year old twin sons share a room so sleep training has always posed a problem! We are getting desperate though as one wakes regularly throughout the night and the other wakes at 5am. The one who wakes early has always been an early riser although eg 6/6.15 which is ok with me. When he is teething he wakes around 5am. His 2 year molars are coming through and I thought I would just wait it out and see it as temporary but since they can take months and we're fed up after a week I thought I would try something and stick with it.
My other son cries up to 5/6 times a night but is quickly comforted by a quick ssh and pat. Problem is i could be doing this 10 minutes later again. The early waker hates being in his cot (or restricted in any way), he wants out and screams as soon as he wakes. This sometimes wakes his brother, sometimes not but i think they both sense my fear of them doing so and this has contributed. His Early waking also seems to be linked to desperately wanting milk, perhaps learnt behaviour from the reflux both suffered in their first year (10 weeks prem).
My problem is I can't find a technique I'm comfortable with, I've tried leaving them to cry, I've tried putting them in our beds, training clocks, shortening nap, changing bed times, feeding times, you name it. I don't want to feel guilty that I'm not listening to their needs nor do I want to feel controlled by my children. I want to do the right thing. I'm tired and can't figure out what that is.

Perhaps w2s and some playing in their cot/bedrooms to get some positive associations?

Any advice welcome, thank you

[<Catherine>]

Hi

Well done on having twin toddlers I struggle with just one!

Hopefully we can help get them sleeping well. Please don't leave them to cry alone, it's not something Tracey believed in and can break trust between a child and their parent.

You will hopefully get some ladies posting here shortly who will have some advice with regards to twins, but in the meantime can you post your routines for us? Ie, wake up time, nap time and length (if any), and bedtime (asleep).

Teeth could well be playing a big part here - the 2yr molars can really cause havoc. Are you medicating at all?

[g-babies]

Thank you Catherine for your reply.

The routine is as follows :-
Wake up varies as mentioned but milk somewhere within 15 mins, followed by breakfast at about 7.30/7.45.
Snack (not much, rice cake, piece of fruit) at about 9.45
Lunch 11.45
Nap 12.30/1 for anywhere between 1 and 2 hours. Doesn't seem to affect nighttime sleep, it's as if they are either in the mood for sleeping or not, disturbed nap often follows/precedes disturbed sleep.
Snack 3.00/3.30
Dinner 6pm
Bath 7
Milk 7.20
Bed 7.40
Early waker falls asleep immediately, night waker chats/sings/occasionally cries for up to 40 mins

I have tried anbesol, bonjela, teething granules, calpol and nurofen, couldn't say any of them definitely make a difference so not convinced its 'pain' but more a discomfort of some sort. Irritability maybe. Doctor prescribed phenergan for the chronic night waker to stop the habit, I resisted this and used it briefly when he had bitten through his tongue and didn't sleep for 4 nights as he kept biting it through the night. Hoped it would give it a chance to heal but in the end only antibios worked. I was too afraid to use full dose so don't think it made any difference.
Hope this helps
Thanks again x

[Katet]

My neighbour has twins (1yo) & a 2.75yo single & she had to swap the rooms around to deal with some sleeping issues, so maybe move one out for a short while to see if you can focus on the other.

With the early waker the milk 15mins after waking may be part of the habit. My 2nd has always been an early waker (low sleep needs) &  I had to bring in a rule "no food before 7am", which was an attempt to rule out hunger as part of the early waking esp as he rarely ate dinner from 2-5yo.  Also TBH past 1yo milk isn't as important & that wake up milk is just a "routine" rather than a need & probably having it with snacks would be better. So at that point I'd just offer water & "deal with the fall out as he adjusts"

Also the evening milk... my DS1 was a poor sleeper for years, the huge improvement in sleep happened when we discovered he had low level milk allergy & cut out almost all milk (had processed dairy still) . So it wouldn't hurt trying to cut out that evening milk as well (they actually don't need it if they have enough dairy in the day) maybe offer a different snack at that time.  It is while since I've looked at the milk requirements, but I'm pretty sure that it is about 600ml (20oz) of milk or equivalent & so if they have cheese or yoghurt or other dairy then that amount would drop considerably.  I know another friend who found sleep improved when limiting milk & replacing with other dairy, which is easier to digest & she also had a baby with reflux.

[g-babies]

 Thank you for your post katet. I think you're right about the milk habit, I'm going to try stretching it out in the mornings. Problem is they just SCREAM until they get it - at 5am its agony (espec if other is still asleep!) They don't really drink a lot of it before bed. The night waker was on nutramigen milk for over a year as he had a dairy intolerance, or so we thought. When we introduced dairy back into his diet it didn't make much difference and if anything his eczema got better!
Anyone reckon w2s worth a go for the ew? Also, can anyone suggest how I can wean the night waker off my reassurance?

[g-babies]

Bump!
Anyone else out there can help me tweak their routine?!
X

[<Catherine>]

Sorry, I've not been able to get online since yesterday.

To me, I'd say the early waker is possibly OT and the night waker possibly UT - when you've tweaked naps previously have you been consistent for several days? It can often take around a week for a new routine to have any effect.

What sort of timings are the night wakings that you get?

I have no idea how to implement 2 different routines with twins but it may be worth a shot.

Could you perhaps try capping the nap at an hour for the night waker and let the early riser have 2 hours? If you can give this a go for at least 3 or 4 days then you can see if it has any effect.

What do you think?

[g-babies]

Hi and thanks
Funny, I had thought it might be the other way round because the early waker leads the routine in a way - when he's tired he wants bed and goes to sleep immediately and since they share a room and I don't want them on different routines I put the night waker to bed at the same time. He rarely falls asleep quickly but often gets woken up earlier than he would like. Just goes to show how different twins can be even when you put them in the same environment repeatedly they don't fall in sync! I will have a think about this though because there's nothing to say they should have the same sleep needs I guess. Thinking about it, since the night waker has been being woken earlier than he'd like repeatedly, he has actually gone to sleep a lot quicker for nap and bed. Maybe I've got it round the wrong way!

I think in the past when I've capped the nap to 1 hour over a week it probably did make a difference, but this was at the same time as getting rid of dummies which worked wonders so had put it down to that. But recently I've been reluctant because if they're waking up due to teeth, I feel bad depriving them of sleep, if you know what I mean? But if it's to break a habit then I think I might give it a go and then do I go back to letting them sleep lOnger again?

Last night I happened to be awake at 4.20 so I readjusted the early waker in his cot until he moved (should they open their eyes?) and he woke at 5.30. Not really sure if that's much of an improvement since it can be anywhere between 5 and 6 but I'm going to try it again tonight.
Thanks again x

[<Catherine>]

When you've tweaked the routine you may find that it works well and that's how things need to stay, or you may find that the tweaking irradiates the OT or UT and you then need to find the routine that suits them - whether that be going back to how things were or somewhere in between. I don't think you will know that until you get there.

It's difficult, but unless you give one way a go, even if just to eliminate the theory, then u will not know for sure what the problem is. This is prime age for problems like this as they begin to want to drop the nap, so chances are that's what the issue is.