NW's worse than when newborn!!!!

[dumbmum101]

Hello lovely, wise BW mums and dads - please help, so tired can't see wood for proverbial trees...

Gradually over the last 4-6 weeks LO (8.5 mnths) has started to wake multiple times in the night. She had only recently started sleeping through - so feels particularly tough. Typically, now waking at 9pm, then 1:30 or 2am, then perhaps 4am, then 5:30, then 6:30 am. Haven't fed her in the night for months, but occasionally have resorted to it (maybe 1 out of 5 nights). Last night fed her 120 mls at 4:30 ish after she (and we) had been trying to settle herself unsuccessfully for approx 2 hrs. She was upset when she finished bottle - wanted more - but popped dummy in and she fell asleep within 2 mins and slept until 8:30am when I (reluctantly) woke her up to start the day to try and claw back our routine.

Usual Routine

6:30 am wake & bottle (180 mls)
8:00am breakfast
8:30am goes off to nursery with Dad
10am ish 1st nap - anything between 45mins - 1hr10 mins
11:30am - 12 lunch
14.00pm - nursery staff try her with a bottle but she usually refuses or only takes 30 mls
14:30pm - 2nd nap - usually 1hr 10 mins
16:00pm - staff try another bottle - sometimes manage to get 120 mls down her
16:30 - I pick up from nursery
17:00 - dinner
19:00 - bedtime bottle 100 (150 mls if I'm lucky) usually have to split before and after bath
19:15 bath
19:30 bedtime
20:00 usually fast asleep by now - no help required

Things to note. 

She has a dummy for naps and BT only. Between 5.5 - 7 months she was waking fairly routinely at 05:15am (loud mumbling, rather than crying) we would pop dummy back in and she would go back to sleep instantly until 6:30am and our day would start. She can pop the dummy back in herself but at moment seems unable/uninterested in finding it for herself in the night. Is this a sign I should I work on gradual removal/ or (gulp) cold turkey?

She's been uninterested in her milk (apart from morning bottle when she's starving) since 5.5 months so I started weaning her around that time. She's pretty good with her solids. Bit fussy at times but generally good eater. But having real trouble getting more than 400 mls of milk a day down her.

NW's seem to have coincided with starting nursery. Obviously, at first her naps there were short but seems to be improving over time. Most days now she gets 2hrs 10 mins of DT sleep in total. Naps at home generally bit longer - 1.5 hrs each. Just think there's an awful lot going on at nursery and she can't quite get the full 1.5 hrs each time (cots are in same room as all other activities - all babies on their own unique routines).

At nearly 9 months no teeth although has been chewing and dribbling for months and months and everyone says 'ooh, she's definitely teething - they'll be here any day now!'

Just learnt to sit up unaided. Bit wobbly at times still. Very very gradual process. Hardly overnight milestone.

Any ideas?

Get rid of dummy? Earlier bedtimes (have tried in past but LO hasn't seemed tired enough and takes ages to settle)? Try and get more food/milk into her (will be a challenge - she purses lips tight shut and shakes head - very definite about her feelings on this)?

Help -exhausted and out of ideas....

[skatty]

Wow, it is probably a combination of most of those things  Firstly I think it may be a good idea to medicate for a night and see if it makes a difference, if it does then you know teething is playing a big part. Another good idea would be to put many dummies in the cot so she isn't just searching for one, we put about 10 in all at arms reach around the top of the cot, it worked like a dream! I am not so good with routine stuff but she is having a very long day, my dd was only doing 3-3˝hrs A time after her second nap at that age (the last A time was shorter than the others). I am wondering if a much earlier bedtime would help, especially on a nursery day, daycare is so stimulating and if she was still fussing and not sleeping I would try even earlier, it sounds like she is crashing with exhaustion now but keeps waking because she has adrenalin rushing through her OT little body. I know it is hard to wake them when you are trying to have a routine but I think in this case I would just let her sleep in if it is possible just to catch some sleep up but that is just my opinion, I think maybe others would say it is best to stick to a routine, the thing is when my dd was so OT she had multiple NWs there was no routine anyway 

[dumbmum101]

Thanks Skatty.

Trying multiple dummies approach tonight (but wouldn't Tracy slap our wrists for adding more props?).

By medicate - do you mean something low-key like bonjela or teething powders - or more full-on like Calpol? Presume Calpol might knock her out regardless (she's only had it once after 4mnth jabs) so might give a 'false positive' as it were?

Will also try EBT. Slight problem with this is that I struggle to get last bottle into her unless she's had a decent gap after diner - she's just not hungry enough otherwise.  Can't do dinner any earlier than 5pm. Tried doing bottle after bath but she often poos after her bottle, then you sort of ruin the whole wind-down thing as lights go up and rustling in drawers to get wipes etc... And poos are EPIC, so hard to do them in a low-key manner - you have to get really involved if you know what I mean reluctant to start DF again. LO started refusing this at about 5 months - just wanted to be asleep in her cot and she was going through to 5am so we just dropped it.

Thanks for suggestions and sorry for more questions.

Hhhm!!!

[skatty]

I don't really think dummies are a prop if they can self plug 

For medication I meant Calpol or Nurofen, I have never found they have a sedative effect so I am not sure they would help her sleep unless it is pain stopping her.

I am wondering if it would be better for you to give her the bottle before dinner because at this age she probably gets more nourishment and is fuller from her milk. I wouldn't introduce a DF again either, I don't think it is hunger waking her if she used to go until 5am and she wont take much milk before bed. I really would put money on teeth being a big part of the problem, shorter A times are often needed when teething anyway and with the tiredness from nursery I think trying to get that EB is going to be your friend 

[dumbmum101]

Thanks again for your reply and ideas.

Fingers crossed not woken yet (we're at 10:45pm). 3 dummies in cot and one currently still plugged in. They used to fall out without waking her. Wonder if/why she hangs on to them more at moment? Comforting if she is teething I suppose?

Interestingly today, because of the late start to the day and trying to get back into routine, she's had only  2x 3hr A times, then only 2hr A time before bed. So your theory about EBT or at least slightly less A time looks to be bearing out 

[Erin M]

I don't really think dummies are a prop if they can self plug 

Definitely.  It's only a prop if she needs you to come in and replug.

[dumbmum101]

Hi - just a quick update. Last night was A LOT better.  She woke only at 4.15am - she spent a good 30 mins trying to settle herself (bless her- she really tries hard to do it herself) but started calling us when it all got too much (as usual ah ah ahs - she never cries in the night). Went in, she'd found a dummy and it was plugged in, she just couldn't get properly settled. Did PD and hand on back for about 10-15 mins (gave in when searing pain in my back got too much - and her breathing seemed to indicate she was gone). Unfortunately, didn't do it for long enough as she called out again about 10 mins later. Sent dad in and he spent another 10-15 mins with hand on her back and she finally went under about 5:30 and woke at 7:25 this morning.

So combo of less A time and multiple dummies approach seems to work. Fingers crossed.

I should have trusted my instincts. Deep down knew her A time had increased too rapidly (6 weeks ago she could only just manage 3hrs at a push - so stupid of me to think she could do 4hrs now!!!) Will insist nursery staff put her down for naps after 3hrs 15 mins max - think it was them putting her down late that had made me think she could manage more A time!!! Annoyed with myself for overlooking something so basic 

Thanks again

[Erin M]

No worries, having extra eyes look at something makes all the difference sometimes.    Glad your night was better!

[dumbmum101]

Another update: she woke at 4am ish again last night and I spent an hour trying to settle her with PD (she was trying hard too) but gave up when her tummy was rumbling so much that I felt it was cruel not to feed her. Gave her 120 mls and she went to sleep immediately.

Not sure whether she's waking for some sort of sleep disturbances, but then becoming more and more aware and getting hungry to boot? (Bit like me - its when I've been up with her for a while I suddenly become conscious I'm hungry too!). Or perhaps it's simply that she's waking out oh hunger? Maybe a growth spurt cruelly timed to come at the end phase of all this frequent NW'ing?

So worried about feeding her in the night as don't want to get into AP situation... But it's cruel not to feed her when she's clearly hungry, right? I know Tracy would say feed her then up milk/food the next day - but she will only take what she wants to take - which isn't much at the moment. Worried she will want less during the day and then we will get into a vicious cycle, because as I've said in first post, she's not taking much milk and even mealtimes have been difficult this weekend.

[skatty]

I would definitely feed if you are sure she is hungry because it would probably mean a GS and once passed it would be doubtful she would wake but i am not sure that is the right advice  Overall things sound very positive with the extra dummies and EB, perhaps try getting a bit more milk in her before bed, it may help 

[Erin M]

Did she sleep all the way from BT until 4 AM without any wakings then? 

[dumbmum101]

Hiya - yep, the 2 nights before last she went through from 7:30 until 4am.

Last night however, she woke at midnight. Tried settling with PD but wasn't working particularly well, then realised she'd poo'd. Changed her, then gave her some milk. She was still unsettled afterwards. Ended up giving her some teething powders and bonjela, then she settled and slept until 7:15 am. So she slept from 1:30ish until 07:15

Just put her to bed at 7pm as she'd had 2 relatively short naps at nursery today (about 50 mins each). She totally refused her bottle at 6:30 and again after her bath. She just seems too cranky and tired to want it. Not sure whether I should try and early DF her in an hour or so?

This milk issue is getting worse. She's had 400 mls max today. Think I may post on the Eat boards to try and get some ideas from other that have been in a similar boat.

Really wouldn't be stressing about it but I do think its making her hungry in the night....

[Erin M]

Just put her to bed at 7pm as she'd had 2 relatively short naps at nursery today (about 50 mins each). She totally refused her bottle at 6:30 and again after her bath. She just seems too cranky and tired to want it. Not sure whether I should try and early DF her in an hour or so?

This milk issue is getting worse. She's had 400 mls max today. Think I may post on the Eat boards to try and get some ideas from other that have been in a similar boat.

It all sounds like teeth to me.  I wonder if you tried something to make her more comfy before giving the bottle (teething powders, something cold, etc) if she'd be more willing to take it? 

[dumbmum101]

Thanks - you're probably right. Tried a sneaky DF at around 8pm but no dice, she got really upset but went straight back to sleep when I gave her the dummy again (same thing she did refusing her DF at around 5 months).

Will offer powder etc... Tomorrow night.

[Erin M]

Good luck!