6.75mth never ending NW and they are getting worse!

[tel33015]

Morning Mummies,

I am really not sure whats going on with my DS at the moment. I feel like the NW have been going on for as long as I can remember and the past few days have been the worst ever and I have no idea what to do 

About 4 weeks ago the NW were between 3am-5:30 and then getting up at 5:30...I got some great advice from here and we started extending his A times so we could drop the catnap. Well we have done that and it improved but there has been mornings where its been terrible. We have been putting it down to teething and even wind...but who knows right if there is no teeth?

He does have a dummy and we are weaning from swaddle with one arm out which is going fine. Planning on getting other arm out this weekend.

A standard day at the moment is:

Awake 6:00am
Bottle 7:00am (5 ounces)
Fruit 8:00am (only started this meal a week ago)
Bed: 9:00am (usually sleeps 2hr-2.15hrs)
Awake: 11:00-11:15am
Bottle: When wakes up but not before 11 if short sleep (4-5 ounces)
Lunch: 12:30-1pm
Bed: 2-2:15pm (currently got this upto about 2hr55min)
Awake 3:30-4:00pm (usually sleeps 1.5-2hrs)
Bottle/Dinner: Trying to drop this bottle.. so ideally its vegies at 4:30 unless super hungry
Bath/Bottle/Bed: 6:45pm (5-6 ounces)
DF at 10:30 (thinking I have to drop this soon) (5 ounces)

We offer catnap if wakes before 3pm...

The last 3 mornings he has been awake for nearly 2 hours...first morning was about 2-4 but we ended up settling with panadol as thought it teeth/wind. There was some crying involved this morning.

Yesterday morning, woke at 3 but was not crying just talking etc etc in cot. He started hard crying at around 4:30ish and I ended up giving him panadol and a bottle (he drank 5 ounces quickly) and then he settled back to sleep at 5.

This morning was the same, woke at 4 and just talked in his cot until finally at 5:20 or something I tried to shh-pat and he went crazy and I thought maybe he was hungry so gave bottle and he drank (4 ounces) and went back to sleep.

Could this be hunger? But wouldn't he be crying? I never had this with my girls....boys huh! I really don't want to start a habit of feeding before 7. Yes it could be a growth spurt but I am just not sure as like I said he has always had NW.

My apologies for the novel  I would love some advice or just to talk about it! I am so tired....

Thanks in advance

[becj86]

Long NW's like that are usually UT (which I doubt in this case - routine looks great and it doesn't seem from what you've written that he's overly happy during this waking) or pain.

He may not be waking from hunger, but when he wakes, he's hungry enough that he can't get back to sleep. Does that make sense? Maybe try meds before bed and a dream med 6-8hr later and see if you can get him through that wake time...

[tel33015]

Thanks becj86, I am happy to hear that routine is looking good.

I will try the meds and see how how he goes. Have not tried the dream med before. I feel like I have been giving him meds an awful lot lately. Will let you know how it goes.

Yes, the whole hunger thing you spoke of makes sense. I suppose one of the reasons I have fed him in the end is because I figure that whatever woke him, even if not hunger, has turned to hunger because he was awake for so long!

Fingers crossed for a better night sleep for us all.

[tel33015]

Morning...well last night was the best night we have all had in ages.

I gave meds at 7pm and then dream meds at 2:am. He woke at 4:45 and the goooing and garring started and I thought oh nooo... but gave him back his dummy and gave him a pat for 5 minutes and then did not hear anything until 6:30am! Thanks becj86 for your suggestion....

So pain might have been the culprit do you think? Like I said before, I feel like I have been giving him meds here and there for the past couple of weeks...has anyone had to do that too? Has anyone got any advice on when giving meds too much for teething? Would be great to do the dream med thing to help him but paranoid about doing it too much!

 

[becj86]

The thing I have heard around here is that we all are worried about giving too much medication and people whose kids are out the other side of teething say they gave lots of meds while LO was teething and when the teeth were all through, they've hardly, if ever, had to give pain meds since so they are now confident it was teeth.

For me, I know if my mouth was so sore I found it hard to sleep, I'd take panadol and see a dentist in the morning (though obviously the dentist is redundant when the teeth are cutting because its all normal and fine). I don't expect DS to sleep while in pain, so either I medicate or I give all the TLC (BF, cuddles, etc.) he wants and needs to sleep.

[tel33015]

Hello again....unfortunately I do not update with great progress in fact its sooo much worse and I am so tired.

I am not sure this is pain related anymore, I really don't know. Could it be the swaddle? Everything was going fine with the 1 arm out but maybe without realizing the cause of his long NW was that he had 1 arm and could play with stuff and not settle back after he knew he could grab stuff (cuddle toy and dummy) etc ? The NW only ever started around 3-4ish, fine before then and also no probs during the day?

Without thinking this could be causing his NW, I removed the swaddle all together and put him on his tummy to sleep. Once again, slept perfect during the day and slept terribly at night. Ended up swaddling again for 2 nights but made no difference. The NW have increased to every couple of hours, at times every 1hr. I always tried to settle without meds or bottle but when got to the point of thinking it might be pain or hunger I gave meds or bottle and has always finished the bottle. Most of the time he settles after that but not always.

I took DS to the dr to get him checked out just for peace of mind and she suggested that teething sleeplessness should not really last longer than 2 weeks? Anybody lasted longer than that? Anyway there is nothing else obvious that could be wrong.

I realise that when you wean the swaddle it can cause a few nights of NW but if he is fine during the day and its been going for nearly a week and he also settles to sleep ok without swaddle, can it be this?

Still not sure if something else pain related is going on so I am thinking PU/PD is not a good idea until that is all confirmed?

Has he just developed some bad NW habits?

Sorry if my statements are so unsure, but I am sure so unsure at the moment.  So tired I could cry over spilt milk.

Any thoughts would be great. Thanks so much.

[becj86]

The NW have increased to every couple of hours, at times every 1hr.

Every hour is usually pain, hunger or in some circumstances a prop - is he an independent sleeper?

Did the doc check his ears?

[tel33015]

Yep, Doc checked his ears and all good.

He sleeps with a dummy and has a cuddly toy. I guess dummy could be a prop but he can re-plug now (if he can find it) Have never rocked and rarely patted to sleep, never slept in our bed...always settled fine after winddown and put in bed. Is that what you mean?

Got an appointment with paed. next week so might go over a few things. Been booked for a while so good timing I think if its still pain..

Rule out swaddle?

[becj86]

I'd have thought unlikely to be swaddle. Looks like not a prop provided he goes into bed awake and goes to sleep on his own (you can be a prop too )

Worth getting the paed to check - there's apparently a pressure check for ears, that may be worth doing if they're not red, just to see they're not hurting when he's lying down but doesn't explain why he sleeps ok in the day...

Too dark? Has he a night light?

[tel33015]

He does go to bed awake and goes to sleep on his own. I must admit, since all the NW we have been sssh/patting a bit to try and settle back to sleep but that is really only successful half the time. Maybe I should try and stick it out and do ssh/pat for longer?? What you think? Its hard because if its pain the sshh/pat won't work will it...

His room is very dark, always has been. We even close the door until we go to bed as his room is close to the kitchen and it can get quite loud. I do leave a small light on in the kitchen but I doubt he would see much of that light, its been more for me!

[becj86]

Its hard because if its pain the sshh/pat won't work will it...

It can - are you using it as comfort or trying to sleep train. Since he's an independent sleeper and you're essentially using it as comfort, its more likely to work, yk? If he's going to sleep whenever you pick him up and he's upright though, I'd be thinking ears or reflux or something...

[tel33015]

Maybe I will give the shh/pat some more time to see if it helps as yes only doing it for comfort and trying to help him back to sleep. He does not go to sleep when I pick him up, picking him up makes no difference to be honest. Only once he has gone to sleep on me but that did not last long, I guess something again woke him while in my arms.

I really am not sure what to do other than to do what I am doing until I speak to paed. I would hate to do pu/pd when he is actually in pain, it would break my heart if there really is something wrong. I also don't want to start any habits trying to comfort him during this whole process. No win situation?

Last night he woke at 9pm...then again at 10pm and settled back to sleep pretty quickly. Then woke at 1pm and cryed hard until finally gave him a bottle and drank 5 ounces really quickly, hunger? Then woke at 4:30ish and then again at 5:30 and then could not get him back to sleep. poor bub looks like he has gone 10 rounds  .

Thanks so much for all your thoughts becj86, it feels better to talk to someone about it that understands the whole BW EAS routine.

[becj86]

Not sure what the temp is like there, its gotten pretty warm here lately - could he be thirsty/hot? Those wakings early in the night and in the early morning sound like he's getting OT DS has been known to drink a lot during the night when its hot - he sweats a LOT.

I really am not sure what to do other than to do what I am doing until I speak to paed. I would hate to do pu/pd when he is actually in pain, it would break my heart if there really is something wrong. I also don't want to start any habits trying to comfort him during this whole process. No win situation?

I'm not really sure either If I were in your shoes, I'd pick an APOP method that is easy enough to wean using gradual withdrawal (like hold to sleep, so you just PD a little less drowsy each time) and only use it if necessary. If he's been an independent sleeper, he should be able to get back to it pretty quickly once whatever is going on is resolved.

[dlhson]

Hello tel33015,

Just want to give you some support. Our DD also is going through such a hard time. The difference is she's getting up every 30mins or so. And feeding doesn't work for us. The only thing we can do is sit up and play with her or stand her cry nearly all through the night. And it's been a month like that for us now. Before last month, she was up twice a night too. We had thought back then that it was nightmare. Well, not quite. Fast forward a month and we can see that things can get much worse than we thought possible.

Here is our case
Quite desperate dad: 7month baby has endless NWs + Updates: Almost no sleep now

Just take care, ask those lovely and knowledgable ladies for advice, take rest as soon as you can and believe in a bright future And keep updating your progress to share with us all.

[tel33015]

Sorry for not posting sooner, have not had a chance to sit in front of a computer!

Thanks so much dlhson, I really appreciate the support. My thoughts and wishes go out to you and your wife. I have read your thread, and will keep reading it. You are getting some great advice and support, I really hope things start to turn around for you soon.

An update? Well nothing much has changed. Friday and Sat night were ok, he still woke but settled pretty quickly without meds, bottle or anything just a pat. I actually had a glimmer of hope but....Sun night we were up for nearly 2 hours from 3am and ended giving bottle which he drank all of but still upset so gave meds and then slept. Last night..woke at 1:40 and was back asleep by 2am and then woke at 4 and back asleep by 5:15 again after skulling his bottle. There was no real crying, he just could not go back to sleep. Tired boy this morning.

I can certainly understand why some of his wakings are OT, I am surprised its not worse actually because he should be so OT. I have offered water too and he did drink some but that did not seem to help. Its been quite cool here the last few days so thinking probably not too hot.

Not 100% sure what APOP means? Does hold to sleep mean to start before he wakes?

The waking times are always around the same times too...can this mean something?

Am at a loss what could be causing his wakings. Got paed appointment today so will discuss to see if its pain related.

I have read some of you the great advice given in dlhson's thread and wondering if any of those things could be effecting us...too much food and not enough milk so waking hungry? Wind/gas/reflux?

Thanks