6.5 month old NW 45-1hr after BT and up for 2-3 hours...

[aelight]

Thanks, Erin -

I think I'm still having trouble figuring out how much A time she can tolerate before BT. Last night, she woke up at 10:15 and would not settle until 11:30. She fell asleep for 5 minutes and I BF'd her when she woke. She was then up at 2:30 and then 5am, when I took her to bed in order to get some sleep. Our day was:

Wake and BF 7:45
Solids 8:45
A 2 hours 55 min
BF and S 10:40 - 12:10
BF 12:30
Solids 1:30
A 3 hours
BF and S 3:20 - 4:45
BF 5:00
Solids 6:00
A 3 hours 50 min
BT 8:35

I know her last A time is long, but she still woke fairly early in the night for a long period of time? Is that OT or UT? She's woken up late this morning again (because I have taken her to bed with me at 5am both mornings...), so we're dealing with a similar nap/BT situation today. As it is, she went to sleep at 3:40pm and I'm not sure if I should wake her at 4:40 or not....

Any thoughts? Do you think that last A time is too long or perhaps I need to stretch all of her A times again? Thanks!
 

[Erin M]

Do you think that last A time is too long or perhaps I need to stretch all of her A times again?

Both perhaps.  I might stretch the first two, but not by much -- that should shorten the third A time.  My feeling is that first NW is an OT one, even if it is on the long side.  What's she doing when she wakes?  Is she fussy, acting like she's trying to go back to sleep?

Have you got any discomfort going on right now?  Wondering about those wakings later in the night -- they could be routine related, but could also be discomfort as well.

[aelight]

  What's she doing when she wakes?  Is she fussy, acting like she's trying to go back to sleep?

Have you got any discomfort going on right now?  Wondering about those wakings later in the night -- they could be routine related, but could also be discomfort as well.

Hmmm.... fussy is a nice way to put it! She is MAD. And this is still happening. I haven't had too much success lengthening her A times because of these long NW. Last night, she was in bed by 7:45, and was up at 11:30 for 2 hours. Angry. And there isn't much I can do to calm her! I've given her meds the last couple nights, so I don't think it is discomfort...I'm starting to go insane, though! And I feel as though she keeps making up for her lost night sleep with naps and we're in a vicious cycle of using up all of her sleep during the day so that she doesn't get OT. Which she probably is, anyway!

I will say her last A time has still been about 4 hours...she honestly doesn't seem at all tired before that? Should I gradually start moving it up or do you think it is better to try and lengthen these first two A times and stick with 7:45?

I'm sorry if this is all over the place....I feel like I'm losing my mind! Thank you!

[Erin M]

I might try an earlier BT, just to see where it gets you.  Sometimes it will shift some of the wakings earlier into the night when they're a little bit easier to manage.  If nothing else, it might get some more night sleep into her which will hopefully shift you back on track the next day.

Any new foods, new skills (developmental stuff) going on?

[aelight]

Hi, Erin.....

I'm back! DD is now 8.5 months old, and while we've made some progress, we're still having some issues...she tends to have two bad nights followed by 1-2 good nights. I've tried messing with her routine a bit, but maybe I am missing something? Here's what it's looking like lately:

Awake: 7:15
BF 7:20
Solids 8:30
S 10:15-11:45
BF noon
Solids 1:30
S 3:15-4:45
BF 3:20
Solids 6:00
BT 8:30
Up at 1:30 (fed), 5 (fed), woke at 7:10

(these A times were a bit shorter because we were coming off a bad night)
Up at 7:05
BF 7:10
Solids 8:15
S 9:50-12:00
BF 12:05
BF 1:30(not really any lunch today - another BF)
S 3-3:50 (car)
BF 4:15
Solids 5:45
BT 7:50
Up 11:30-1 (fed at 12:30), up at 2:50-3:40 (fed 3:30), up at 6:45

It's these long NWs that are confusing me again. Some nights, she goes 6-8 hours without eating (she may wake up for a minute or two to cry out, but nothing long) and last night, for instance, she was up less than three hours between feeds. I don't think she's hungry, but I can't seem to settle her without nursing. She is also SORT of resisting her naps lately. She never used to cry at all when I put her down, and now she will fuss anywhere from 30 seconds to 8 or so minutes. She still almost always sleeps at least 1.5 hours, though, so I kind of doubt UT?

Does anything jump out at you? She's always working on things (she started walking around 7.5 months - refuses to crawl), but we really give her a LOT of practice time while she's awake...

Thanks!!

[Erin M]

That first day you've got posted -- did she go right back to sleep after she fed or was she awake for awhile?  DS was doing multiple night feeds at that age.

The second day -- probably OT at bed time because of that second short nap -- the refusing solids thing -- teeth related maybe?  Oftentimes, LOs will refuse to eat when they've got teeth shifting about under the gums -- was always worse for all of mine before the teeth actually came through (that was actually the easy part with DS, the shifting around was what would keep him up). 

Nap refusal -- probably UT actually -- a 1.5 hour nap is a good nap, but you might actually get a longer one if you pushed the A times a bit.  You're starting to reach the age where things get a little messy during the day -- A times at her age could be up to 4 hours so you could bump them up a little and still be well within the range of normal for her age. 

What's she doing during those long NWs?  Is it all fussiness or is she wide awake and just sort of hanging out and not sleeping? 

[aelight]

Thanks, Erin -

Yes, the first day I posted she went right back to sleep after being fed (she did the same last night). I will say she doesn't eat THAT much during these feeds - or rather, she doesn't seem to WANT to feed that much (she can't really help it after a letdown). But, feeding her and having her go right to sleep is certainly better than the alternative...

So you think I should aim for longer than 1.5 hour naps? TBH, I often wake her because I am afraid of her getting too much day sleep? I can definitely bump her second A time now; the second nap is where I'm getting the most problems. But that will push our day/night back, right? This is where I get confused...if she doesn't take her second nap until 3:30/3:45, and then sleeps for 1.5 hours, when should she go to bed? Should I be aiming for a 13 hour day?

During the long NWs she is mostly always fussy. There have been a handful of times that I'll go in and she'll stop crying and start babbling or spitting, but those are fairly rare.

I am constantly second guessing myself about her sleep needs. I can't decide if she is high or low...she seems tired and I feel like I'm constantly waking her up, but then she'll stay up for hours in the night! It's very confusing .

Thank you!

[Erin M]

I would let her sleep as long as she wants and see where it gets you (at least for the first nap, if the second nap gets too long then we can do some capping there along with shortening the A time after).  It's not all that unusual to end up with a 13 hour day at about this age if you've got 2 long naps and some long A time in between.  It's good to let them sleep as long as they want for one nap, even if it's not doable for both of them. 

[aelight]

Thanks, Erin -

She just gave me a lot of trouble (well, for her - 9 minutes of fussing) for her second nap after 3 hrs 30 min of A time, so maybe I need to up it again...tomorrow I will let her sleep for as long as she wants for her first nap and see how she does. Then I will take a look where we are and figure out if I'll need to cap her PM nap? I just worry that if she sleep until 5 or so, she'll want to stay up until 9pm? Though maybe that isn't the case!

Thanks!

Amy

[Erin M]

I just worry that if she sleep until 5 or so, she'll want to stay up until 9pm?

On a full nap, yes.  But if you end up capping the second nap she shouldn't be able to manage a full A time (or anywhere near one) on that.  Your day does get longer too as you move to 1 nap, more like 13 hours instead of 12.

[aelight]

Okay, I can definitely cap the second nap - at 45 min or an hour or so? So our day could look something like:

WU 7:15
S 10:30-12:30
S 4-5 (or 4-4:45?)
BT 7:30/8?

I feel like she wants to push the AM nap even further out, but then I don't see how we would get any nap in in the PM?

Thanks!!

[Erin M]

If you're getting a 2 hour AM nap, I'd probably keep it where it is, but if it starts getting shorter than you need to push the A time out even more.  I'd start with an hour PM nap, she's pretty young to be getting into the 2-1 that much -- so for right now I'd try the 4-5 nap and the 7:30 BT and see what she's telling you about that.  My suspicion is you'll know pretty quickly if that's right for her and where to tweak. 

[aelight]

Hi, Erin

So, I've been trying to follow this advice for the last few days (yesterday was hard because we had swimming at noon), and I think it's going okay? I still have two questions, though....

1) Her AM nap, if I let it go (which I have been), will be 2.5 hours. Doesn't that seem SO long? One day, she napped 10-12:30 and then 4:20-5:05. Today she napped 10:10-12:40 and fought her PM nap for 10 minutes and then fell asleep at 4:10 - I will wake her at 5:10. Should I let her sleep that long for her first nap?

2) Her nights haven't really changed much. She is still waking twice to eat, which is okay, but I'm  not convinced the first waking is true hunger. She wakes at almost the same time every night (12:15). Is this a habitual waking? I've tried to comfort her other ways besides bfing, though, and she won't settle unless fed...and then seems to take a lazy feed. Any thoughts on that?

Her EASY the last few days has been:
WU: 6:45
S: 10-12:30
S: 4:10-5:10
BT: 7:45/8

Do you still think I should try and put her to bed at 7:30 even though she takes such a long AM nap?

Thanks!!

[aelight]

Just a quick update... She woke herself after 55 minutes from her nap - UT, right? She went to bed at 8 and yelled out for 30-60 seconds, which she never does...hope it doesn't mean anything too terrible for tonight!

[Erin M]

Should I let her sleep that long for her first nap?

Personally, I always let them sleep as long as they will for one of their naps -- that way, I know they're getting all the rest they seem to need for it -- that longer nap will eventually turn into your one nap when you go down to 1, so ideally you do want them to get used to the idea of taking a long one for that.  My LOs have never been the longest of nappers, but I did get a good stretch with all of them where they'd do 2 hours or more for their nap when they were at 1 -- and people whose LO's have always been longer nappers will sometimes get 3 (or more!) hours for that midday nap.  I think that way you ensure that you're getting good rest for one nap and then you can work on capping the other. 

She wakes at almost the same time every night (12:15). Is this a habitual waking? I've tried to comfort her other ways besides bfing, though, and she won't settle unless fed...and then seems to take a lazy feed. Any thoughts on that?

If it's happening at roughly the same time every night and you are getting a bit of a lazy feed, you might try wake to sleep -- are you familiar with it?  -- there's some info on it here: How to address habitual wakings (w2s and other methods)

She woke herself after 55 minutes from her nap - UT, right?

Possible, but to be honest, if your night goes ok, I wouldn't worry about it -- you don't want her taking 2 giant naps during the day or she'd never go to bed. 


I hope you have a good night!

Do you still think I should try and put her to bed at 7:30 even though she takes such a long AM nap?

I would try not to get the day too long -- I'd cap the PM nap before that since if your day gets too long, your night is going to end up on the shorter side which isn't ideal either.