DF and NW question

[Naspochi]

I started BW and EASY just this week on my 11 w LO. We started the DF on Tuesday, and it seemed to be a miracle for the first 2/3 nights:
Tuesday
S 840-440 DF 1140
E 445
S 5-8 and then up for day

Wednesday
S 830-6 DF 1140
E 6
S 630-9 and then up for day

Thursday
S 845 - 330 DF 1145
E 330
S 4-7 and then up for day

Starting Friday things got kind of strange:
S 745 - 245 DF 11
E 245
S 315 - 5
E 5 (probably shouldn't have fed him here but I thought maybe his 12w growth spurt was starting)
S 530-830 and up for day

Saturday
S 745 - 3 DF 1115
E 3
S 330 - 5, soothed back to sleep then 530-630
E 630
S 7-8 then up for day

These night wakings the last two nights seemed so strange to me considering how well the first three days went. I have a few guesses - the DF is too late? I'm trying to get LO to bed before 8 from now on but maybe things went better the first few days b/c the later DF was more in line with the later bedtime? I EBF and so it's harder to tell if LO is getting more food during the day to avoid the NW. Perhaps the NW are due to 45 minute naps?

These are all of my guesses! If anyone has any input it would be greatly appreciated! I can supply daily schedules for the whole week if necessary.

[Naspochi]

I just realized I posted this question in the wrong area but don't know how to move it, sorry!!

[becj86]

I have a few guesses - the DF is too late?

Possibly - ideally it is between 3 and 4hr after LO goes to sleep for the night so they're deeply asleep and its then less likely to disturb their sleep.

I EBF and so it's harder to tell if LO is getting more food during the day to avoid the NW. Perhaps the NW are due to 45 minute naps?

Not sure... Often NW's are related to how the day is going - what do your days look like at the moment (and what are you aiming for, if anything, if it varies from what's actually happening?)?

[Naspochi]

Hi there, thanks for your help. I decided to try another few weeks of DF and BW EASY to see how everything proceeds before writing again. With LO we have good days and bad days, it mostly depends on his naps (he's been bitten hard by the 45 minute nap bug and i'm trying every nap extension possible to get better day sleep out of him). I know that the better he sleeps by day the better he sleeps at night. If we get around 15 hours of sleep a day he's an angel and I'm in love. But we always have a few good days followed by a few bad days. I'll post my EASY for the last few days so you can have more info to answer my questions. LO is 14 w.

The question is this: since we started the DF, there have certainly been nights where LO sleeps 8-9 hours including the DF. But recently he's been waking exactly 3 hr after the DF and wanting to eat every 3 hours through the night after the first NW, sometimes every 2 hours. I know that he's capable of sleeping a 7-9 hr stretch so I don't understand why he's waking after just 6 hours of sleep including the DF. Maybe it's something in our EASY? My DH says that it's the DF's fault and to eliminate it. But when it worked, LO slept 8/9 hours and I was a very content and well rested mommy!

If it's been less than 3 hours since his last NW/feeding, I try to do shh/pat to get him back to sleep instead of feeding him. But that's only worked once, I'll mark it below. All the other times I've tried, he gets hysterical and maybe I'm just too tired to really assess the problem, but it surely sounds like his hungry cry so I whip the boob out. He eats a full meal and empties my breast so I can only assume that he was truly hungry. So I'm wondering if maybe I'm not feeding enough during the day? He is EBF and on a 3 hr easy, more or less. I also have a few other questions that I threw into my EASY below. Just let me know if you need any extra info and thank you thank you thank you! Without this forum I probably would have abandoned BW long ago!

tues Jan 1 (we stayed home the 31st and had friends over, LO was in bed before they arrived and never actually saw them, but I think he knew something was up b/c he slept HORRIBLY that night, got 6.5 hours total sleep )
e 830
a
s 1010-1115
e 1130
a
s 1235-250
e 250
a
s 420-530
e 530
a bath
e 715
s 750-1250 df 1030
e 1250 (here I'm guessing he woke after 5 hours and only 2.5 hours after the DF b/c he was still OT from the night before?)
s 110 - 240 tried to calm him but nothing worked
e 320 - 335
s 415-5, 540-640
e 645 - 710
s 715-815

Wednesday (we had a bad morning, I could never calm LO down thus the frequent feedings...)
E 815
A
S 940-1015
A
E 1045
A tiny bit
S 11 15 - 1145
E 1145
A
S 1-130, 155-255
E 3
A
S 430 - 530
E 6
A bath
E 730 cluster feed
S 8 - 2 DF 11
E 215 - 230
S 245 - 520
E 520-535
S 540 - 645, 655 - 820 (shh/pat worked, woohoo!)

Thursday
E 820
A
S 950-1045
E 11
A
S 1215-230
E 245
A
S 415 - 540
E 545
A bath
E 715 cluster feed
S 745 - 245 DF 11
E 3-315
S 320-445 (why is he waking after an hour and a half? only food calmed him down, he seemed hungry...)
E 510-525
S 530-710

Friday
E 725 (I tried to shh/pat LO back to bed b/c at this point he had only slept 10 hours and I was under the impression that LO needs at least 11.5 hours of sleep a night at 14 w. He didn't want to sleep so I fed him thinking it would be the start of his day. Fed him while side lying in bed to get a bit of rest for myself before getting up and he fell back asleep! So I let him sleep...not sure if this was right or I should have gotten him up?)
S 740-950 (Mom and Dad were happy for the extra 2 hours after all the NW!, but how do I treat this, as night sleep or his first nap? He didn't have any A time before it though...and he never naps 2 hours unless he's out in his stroller. But you'll see below I didn't get a good third nap out of him like I usually do so I'm guessing it counts as the first nap?)
E 10
A
S 1125-1140, 12 - 1250 (we were out and he woke up when I went inside a place for 20 minutes)
E 1
A
S 225 - 3, 315- 420 (Nap extension)
E 430
A
S 550 but for 5 minutes and he refused the nap, he NEVER wants to nap after 5 pm so on a normal day (when we get up btwn 730 and 830) I just put him to bed a bit earlier and skip the last catnap, otherwise we just fight over it and he cries a lot and mommy gets super frustrated
E 615
S 630-7 (he fell asleep at the boob, never happens but considering the 5 minute nap from 550, I let him rest for half an hour, pulled the boob out of his mouth though, if that counts for anything )
A bath
E 750 cluster feed
S 8 30 to now, I put him down awake in his crib and he fell asleep IS, woohoo!!!!

TIA for any help, I'm guessing I need to smooth out his daytime routine and get more food into him in the day and then maybe some of these NW will go away...but you're the experts so please help and thank you thank you thank you!

ps sorry for the long post, you can tell that LO is asleep now and I have a few hours to kill before the DF, can't you?! And I've got a glass of wine going...

[becj86]

Your 45min naps could well be partly related to undertiredness - you have some naps that are 55min, 1hr, 1hr5 in the morning and those are undertired ones too. At this age, you're in a transition from 3-4hr EASY and A times go up a bit (from 1.5hr at 3 months to 2hr at 4 months), around 1hr40 would be about right for him at the moment.

You could also be seeing a growth spurt - these happen quite a bit in the first 6 months and LO's who have been going longer between feeds wake earlier and are legitimately hungry - feeds will get further apart again but feeding more frequently is baby's way of getting you to make more milk.

[Naspochi]

Thanks Bec! So you think I should keep on feeding him through the night, even when he wakes up less than 2 hours after the last feed? I was just re-reading 'Sleep, top tips from the BW' and read a suggestion that DH tries to settle LO at these more frequent NW, b/c maybe when it's me he immediately equates the waking with feeding. Should we try this first and then if LO gives a true hunger try, feed?

[becj86]

So you think I should keep on feeding him through the night, even when he wakes up less than 2 hours after the last feed?

Are you sure he's hungry here? Is it possible he's got wind pains or tummy discomfort of some sort from the feed previous? L often had gas pains if he'd been a long while between feeds because he was gulping to keep up with the flow of milk...

Definitely worth getting DH to settle between feeds, but he has to stick at it til LO is back asleep again, even if it takes hours because otherwise you're teaching LO if he cries long enough, he will get fed. How long have these extra wakings been going on?

[Naspochi]

I've been doing the DF for 3 weeks and the wakings are VERY on and off. I'd say at least 3 nights a week LO sleeps 7-9 hours including DF and the other nights, it's around 6 hours including DF (so waking almost exactly 3 h after DF) and then after that it's a crap shoot, sometimes he'll sleep another 3 hours before waking and being hungry and other nights it's every hour and a half. My guess is that it's a reflection of his daytime EASY and how good the naps were that day, but I'm not sure. Could it be that or a hunger issue?

I'm worried DH doesn't have that kind of dedication. After 5 minutes of crying he always tells me to just pull a boob out...he also doesn't like shh/pat very much. But it's working and he sees that. I can work on him if I have to...

[becj86]

I sleep trained while DH was overnighting at work Much easier for me that way and honestly, there wasn't that much of an issue, I was either going to feed which I did straight away or I was going to settle and DS got the picture pretty quickly.

I'd say at least 3 nights a week LO sleeps 7-9 hours including DF and the other nights, it's around 6 hours including DF (so waking almost exactly 3 h after DF)

This is quite normal variation at this age. Are the more frequent wakings after the first NW more commonly happening after the 7-9hr stretch?

It could be related to his naps, but usually bad naps and short-term OT show up in wakings within an hour or so after bedtime. It could be undertired from the A times not being long enough but unlikely given these wakings aren't long happy chatting sessions.

[Naspochi]

Thanks again for you response. To answer your question, the frequent wakings are always after the first stretch which is anywhere from 5 to 9 hours. But usually the frequent wakings are only on the nights where the first stretch is short. For example last night he slept 7 hours including the DF after 3 hours of sleep, woke to eat, and slept another 3 hours. Yaa!

The only bummer is that DH is a musician and has had concerts the last two nights, so instead of going to bed with LO at 8 and getting 7 hours myself, I have to wait for the DF and then go to bed. DH suggests going to bed and setting an alarm for the DF but I would be seriously ed when that alarm went off! So I just eat dinner slowly, take a shower, take care of the house, etc.

I have a random question, I'll ask you but if you think it's better I'll create another post. When LO was born I bought a bunch of sleep books: Mindell, Ferber, 12 hours by 12 weeks by Suzy Giordano (not a good book imo), etc. I've done tons of research and pretty much all theories agree that at 3 mo LO should be sleeping total 15 hours a day but Ferber says 13. Do you know why? That seems so low in comparison to all the other 'experts' out there.

One more random question: should LO be getting 12 hours of night sleep or is 10 perfectly acceptable? Let's say the day sleep continues to be a struggle, what if he had only 3 hours of day sleep but 12 hours of night sleep instead of 10 hours night sleep and 5 day? Is there a big difference?

Thanks again for your help!

[becj86]

I've done tons of research and pretty much all theories agree that at 3 mo LO should be sleeping total 15 hours a day but Ferber says 13. Do you know why?

Nope, no idea. My kid could not have done that! Possibly he counts time during NW's as awake time We tend to think of a 12hr night as 12hr sleep when in reality, there could be 2-3 feeds of 30min each in there.

One more random question: should LO be getting 12 hours of night sleep or is 10 perfectly acceptable? Let's say the day sleep continues to be a struggle, what if he had only 3 hours of day sleep but 12 hours of night sleep instead of 10 hours night sleep and 5 day? Is there a big difference?

Night sleep is much more restorative than naps - so back-to-back sleeps in an 11-12hr block (say from 7-7) are quite important.
I can see that in my own son at the moment - he is woken by the sun and the birds and sometimes DH at 5/5:30am and I cannot get his BT earlier than 7:30pm because we're just not at home early enough. He is in an OT spiral and taking 3-3.5hr naps to cope with the short nights - its keeping him going but he's still chronically OT.

But usually the frequent wakings are only on the nights where the first stretch is short.

Any correlation to DF timing - did he go to sleep a little later and DF was less than 3hr after he fell asleep those days? Do you burp him after the DF?

[Naspochi]

Thanks for your answers!

But usually the frequent wakings are only on the nights where the first stretch is short.

Any correlation to DF timing - did he go to sleep a little later and DF was less than 3hr after he fell asleep those days? Do you burp him after the DF?
[/quote]

The DF is always exactly 3 hours after DS goes to bed, which is always variable. I shoot for 730 but for example tonight DS woke from his last catnap at 630 so including last feed and bath, I didn't get him down until 830. So DF will be 1130 (thank god DH is home tonight and can do it so I can go to bed right now!). LO is EBF and gets a bottle of my BM for the DF, we leave him in the crib and don't burp him afterwards - he's only woken up once in the 3 weeks that we've been doing the DF, he usually grunts a bit after the DF but never opens his eyes and goes directly back to sleep.

The confusing cycle continues to repeat itself - two nights ago DS slept for 7 hours including DF, ate, and went back down for 3 hours. I considered the night a huge success. Last night instead he woke after 5 and a half hours including DF, ate, slept 1.5 hours, woke and I tried to settle for over an hour then gave up and fed, slept another hour and three quarters, woke again and after half an hour DH managed to settle him but he only slept another 45 minutes and then we got up for the day... I just wish that I could pinpoint what's causing these random nights - the days are pretty regular and then the night is always a crapshoot. Keeping my fingers crossed for tonight!

Thanks again for all your help.

[becj86]

A times shift a bit up to 4 months - What's his A time at the moment?