Spirited child - best techniques for gradual withdrawal for him?

[Skazm]

Right now his props are me and my built in snack factory, and his father.

We've tried giving him a teddy but it hasn't really worked.

We do have a 'shluffy (sleep) time' song and I pray/sing with him a standard selection, but then he just still wants to nurse.

How do we start gradual withdrawal?

Thanks and hope you all enjoyed your holidays,
Aviva

[*jazzberry*]

How old is he? Have you seen these links?
Gentle Removal Plan
Walk In/Walk Out vs. The Gradual Withdrawal Method (HOW TO CHOOSE)

[Skazm]

the last one yes... he is 18 months old in a week.5...

[Skazm]

I do the Pantley thing, have been doing it... doesn;t help all that much, he wakes up more and howls...

[Truly Blessed]

Hi Hun,

Can you tell me has he ever been an Independent Sleeper and able to self settle, or has he been fed to sleep 

My DS is Spirited so I know how it can be  . I have done GW with him several times to get him back on track through various developmental leaps. My advise to you would be to start by sitting by the cot, presuming he is still in a cot  After you have done your usual BT routine, sit quietly and use your sleepy phrase, but not too often as it can be stimulating. Sit sideways as no doubt he will have a whole host of tricks up his sleeve, and if you are not looking at him, he will have less chance of entertaining you  . If he is standing and crying then you could try laying him down (the PD part of PU/PD) if h standing but not crying then leave him to it. You will probably find after a couple of nights he will dive down by himself before you can do it for him LOL, this is what DS and other LO's have done.

The BF prop IMHO should be broken at the same time. When DS was 10 months old I got into a habit of feeding him to sleep during bad teething pain and it resulted in around 8 NW a night  even after teething was over (for a while  ) I used GW/PD to teach him IS again  It can be helpful if his Daddy is able to do the first few nights, so that he knows feeding is not going to happen anymore, sometimes it's a little kinder and quicker but if that isn't possible, don't worry he will catch on quick, Spirited LO's are very smart  . They do however more than any others, I have found, need very clear boundaries with everything, but if they get that they respond very well. So at first you will stay until he is asleep. For any NW and also naps, you need to do the same thing, that way he will get the message quickly. I recommend you start with his naps.

Has he got a good routine  Is he on 1 or 2 naps 

I'm here to hold your hand and take you through it if you would like me too  and answer any questions as we go along. He can do this and so can you!

(Hugs)

Vicki.x.

[Skazm]

Thank you so much for taking the time to do this.  I don't nurse him all the way to sleep - haven't for a while.  At least at bedtime.  Sometimes before naptime but that doesn't happen that much anymore as he comes home from 'school' sleeping.  At bedtime (this has been pretty stable for at least the past few weeks), I do my whole song n' dance, and then my husband comes in.  I leave the room.  DH puts DS to bed, lies down next to him, and DS plays for a while, lays himself down and goes to sleep.  But if someone isn't there he usually screams. 

The main issue is DH wakes up in the middle of the night.  In order to stop breastfeeding at night and keep it stopped, my poor husband (who has insomnia as it is) goes into him at night.  Last night, 4 times.  No joke.  That's probably cause we accidentally let him sleep 'til 4PM the previous afternoon, though.  It's usually only 2x per night.

So we're at the point in the game where DH is next to him on the mattress next to the toddler bed (which was changed from a cot to the toddler bed after he deftly learned how to climb out of it - we have an extra tall safety gate on his BR door now and made the room to one big crib).  But sometimes generally around the hours of 4 (if it's close enough to wake-up time) he'll start screaming ta-tas 'cause he's hungry.  I am trying very hard to feed him quite well (foods like oatmeal, bananas, milk and all the tryptophan sleepytime foods) or whatever we are having for dinner to make him want to sleep and stave off nighttime hunger because I'm sure that's an issue.  Sometimes he won't eat though and wakes up hungry.  But other than that...

The goal is to get this kid to sleep through the night, and no, he does not have that much experience falling asleep on his own but it has happened.

Please let me know what you think I should do at this point, and thank you very much.
Aviva

[Truly Blessed]

Hi Hun,

Okay so there are a few things going on but they're all fixable. Does he have a set routine  Can you post this:

Wake Up (WU)

Nap/Naps times and length.

Bed Time (BT)

An 18 month old won't be waking through hunger in the night Hun, he is waking because he is used to night feeds and also because you were there when he went to sleep and gone when he wakes. The fact that you and DH are now hands off and just in the room for him to settle is a positive though, much better than rocking or feeding so sleep. We need to find a routine that suits him and fits in with life/work/nursery etc.

The BF need to be separated from sleep times, so for eg: if his BT routine is bath/story feed, then change it to feed/bath story, to avoid him having any chance of falling asleep on the breast. Also to stop you from worrying that he is hungry you can introduce a sippy with some milk and put it in his cot. Also he may just be thirsty rather than hungry, our DS drinks more juice at night than he does in the day.

You are basically doing Gradual Withdrawal, so it is a matter of moving away from the bed towards the door, keeping the next position until he is happy with it, and then finally you will be outside.

I'll wait for the answer to the questions and then we can crack on getting this little fella and you and DH lots more rest.

(Hugs)

x.

[Skazm]

WAKE UP - lately from 5- 6 G-d help us, but he's supposed to wake 640

Naps  - on Mon, Wed, Fri after daycare usually, 12:15P basically though he sometimes and thank G-d not often decides just not to go to sleep - he usually naps 11 or 12 other days.
Today I had to wake him! He slept from 12:15 to 3!  After 3, I don't let him sleep.

BTW is usually between 6-7 - we've been aiming for closer to 7 recently - he is now awake (but when we tried to give him dinner at 6 he wouldn't eat, so he is hungry now - I made him a smoothie - his father just left the bedroom so I am hearing complaints... its 930p our time (Eastern)

yeah I think I am gonna try the bottle thing - - DS loves to dump everything out though, bottle or sippy cup - and splash it everywhere ://

I'm very grateful for any help you can give us.

[Truly Blessed]

Hi Hun,

WAKE UP - lately from 5- 6 G-d help us, but he's supposed to wake 640

Do you keep him in his bed until WU time or just get him up 

Naps  - on Mon, Wed, Fri after daycare usually, 12:15P basically though he sometimes and thank G-d not often decides just not to go to sleep - he usually naps 11 or 12 other days.
Today I had to wake him! He slept from 12:15 to 3!  After 3, I don't let him sleep.

Daycare nap times are a stumbling block for lots of parents. What some do is to stretch the nap to the same time every day so that LO learns to set their body clock and you get consistency. If you can get his WU back to 6.45 then that would be 5.5 hours to nap which is perfectly possible for him to manage at this age.

Obviously on a WU of 5 am he will be shattered by 12.15, so it's my guess that those are the days he's refusing his nap 

I'd say you need to tackle the sleep training at the same time as his routine. I would recommend Gradual Withdrawal as it follows on from what you have been doing. Have you read up on that    I can take you through it if you want to start trying to get out of the room 

LOL at your messy little tinker  I'd still say it's worth trying the bottle trick, if he gets wet he may wake you, but if he screams for you to feed him you'd be awake anyway  nothing to lose I guess.

(Hugs)

x.

[Skazm]

Hi...thanks for your reply...haven't been on because he got sick for a week, and I did too, antibiotics, the whole nine yars as we say stateside. we are now back to square one as we were both sick - he is definitely feeding (if it's even that and not just suckling) to sleep and waking at 5 to nurse for a whole hour and a half (or as long as I will let) - I am a walking pacifier. 

RE: his history, He has either been fed to sleep or has his father in the room, whom he lays down next to and just goes to sleep.  But if I'm involved, so are the tatas.  I think he's only fallen asleep independently several times in his whole precious life.

WU he screams his heart out for the tata (my breast) so there's not much keeping him in his bed - he actually has two beds, one a toddler bed he won't sleep in, and the mattress next to it we put him to sleep on.  He has a very tall baby gate at his door to keep him in and his room has been babyproofed, so he will just run to the door and howl.

OK so I have to remove BF from BT... will start on that tomorrow night.  THank you. 

[Skazm]

so...tonight I nursed him with the light on, did our whole 'song n  dance', and then sang the shluffy time song and handed him over to his father.  Now DH went out and like, just now he started crying a lot.  All he wanted was for me to come and snuggle him.  How can I resist?  He did ask for ta-tas and I said no, but he was just happy to have me snuggling him.  And now he is sleeping, snoring like a little baby chainsaw.

[Truly Blessed]

Hello Honey,

So sorry I've been AWOL, I have stepped down as Moderator as I'm studying for a new job, so I haven't been around. Sorry to hear the poor little mite has been sick, these things always seem to happen in an untimely fashion.

I completely understand how hard it is to refuse BF Hun, it can almost break your heart, but ultimately teaching him Independent Sleep is the greatest gift you can give him. I wonder if it would be better all round if you BF him maybe before his bath, and then Daddy does the whole BT routine    This is something that has worked for other parents when weaning BF for sleeps. With regards to the GW, if DS is used to Daddy lying with him then perhaps the next stage could be for DH to sit up next to the mattress and used a 'sleepy phrase' when needed. Once DS is used to that he can move further away.

How does that sound to you 

WRT him sleeping on the mattress, I have heard of other LO's who are very comfortable that way  and I don't see it as a problem at all. It rules out falling out of bed anyway eh    IIWM I'd just put the toddler bed away for now and stick with it.

Let me know how you're doing and what you think.

I may not be around all the time though Sweetie, so I am going to ask the Ladies to watch out for you so you have continued support.

Big (HUG)

Vicki.x.