4.5 month old NW and short nap advice

[brownc623]

My son Gabriel is having more and more night wakings and short naps. I think I need to tweak his A time first thing in the morning but my concern is that he gets unbearably fussy just keeping him up 1:30. I worry that I'm keeping him up past his window and that he'll be OT due to his NW. So I plan to keep him up 2 hr, and I always cave and put him down at 1.5 hours.

So my question is this… is it normal for LO to be screaming mad from extra tired before their first nap? Is this something that will go away once I iron out his schedule? Should I ignore his sleepy signs and keep him up 2 hr on that first AM A?

My son is 19 weeks and 4 days old his EASY isn't ideal.. it looks like this:

W/U 7:00 am
E 7:00
A 7:00 - 8:30
S 8:30 - 9:10
Y
E 9:10
A 9:10 - 10:40
S 10:40 - 11:20
Y
E 11:20
A 11:20 - 12:50
S 12:50 - 1:30
Y
E 1:30
A 1:30 - 3:00
S 3:00 - 4:30
Y
E 4:30
A 4:30 - 7:00
S 7:00 Bedtime

His wind down includes a brief top off BF followed by rocking with a lullaby for naps. Once he looks sleepy I lay him down, swaddle him quickly, kiss him goodnight and either shh pat or leave the room depending on him. We did P/U P/D when we started sleep training a month ago, lately he hasn't needed it. Sometimes he does fight his naps, but never badly enough to warrant P/U P/D.

His naps have been 40 min except 1 1.5 hour usually in the afternoon.

We are breastfeeding although we have experimented with a little baby led weaning. He very much enjoyed feeding himself some avocado the other day. We aren't to a place where we're giving solids daily yet. He does eat the solids when offered, though how much actually ends up in his tummy is questionable.

The bedtime routine is Massage, Bath, BF, Lullaby and rock, then swaddle and lay down awake, to go to sleep.

His NW have been sometimes at 2:00, always at 4:00 and 6:00 every night for the last 3 nights. Last night I started pumping so that I finish about 10 min before he wakes to see if this will end the NWs. When we started P/U P/D he started off great and was going to bed at 8pm and sleeping through to 6am 1 feed then back to sleep till 7 am, but we made a trip to grandma's and he regressed to 3 w/u per night again. We are still at grandma's, planning to go home tomorrow. I should also mention that I believe he may have had a growth spurt within the last week as the NW were erratic at first, but  then over the last couple nights have developed a pattern.

When he wakes at night he fusses, then cries. I wait for a genuine cry then I go in and feed him (I started pumping before his feedings last night so he's not getting much of anything) After a feeding I lay him down, swaddle him up, kiss him and say goodnight then walk out. Usually he'll cry while I'm swaddling him, and about half the time he'll need a couple minutes of shh pat to get to sleep, the other half the time he settles himself immediately after I'm done swaddling.

He no longer has any true props. We do BF before bed, but I put time between BF and actual lay down to make sure that he's not going to sleep on the boob. He does suck his thumb, but doesn't seem to have trouble finding it to resettle himself between 7:00pm and 2:00 am.

[becj86]

Sometimes he does fight his naps, but never badly enough to warrant P/U P/D.

Fighting nap - would likely be a sign of undertiredness.

Its quite possible he's waking in the night from hunger - night feeds come and go at this age and its very normal for a BF baby of this age to be having one or two full feeds overnight. Given he's waking at 2, that's still a good stretch and I'd be feeding a proper feed then and that may just prevent the 4 and 6am wakings.

I really think if you push his A times out and get these naps longer, he will sleep better day and night - just push his A times gently, 10-15min every few days rather than jumping from 1.5hr to 2hr in one go. He will likely need just over 2hr by the time you get there. He could be bored - tired signs often double as bored signs, so try a change of scenery before putting down for bed. Extend A time with low-key gentle activities like walking around the garden or singing a song so his body can get used to longer A times.

[brownc623]

Perfect, I'll give it a go tonight with letting him have the full 2 am feeding and starting 1:40 A times tomorrow and will update as I go.

Thank you so much for the advice!

[brownc623]

So far today

E 7:02
A 7:02 - 8:45 am
S 8:45 - 9:30 am  No fussing after swaddling, went straight to sleep
Y
E 10:10 am
A 9:30am - 11:10 Yawning and fussing at 10:40
S 11:20 - 12:00 Fought nap for about 10 min
Y
E 12:35
A 12:00 - current (1:00)

Baby seems OT now and very grumpy. I'm thinking I'll need to put him to nap at 1:30 instead of 1:45 this time? Not sure, any opinions? Should I have laid him down at 10:40 (1:15 A) instead of waiting since he yawned and fussed?

[brownc623]

I went ahead and tried to lay him down at 1:30, he has been diligently trying to get himself to sleep since. He lays there thumb in mouth suckling like a fanatic eyes closed, body wriggling with frustration. Every 5-10 min he gets frustrated enough to let out a single cry or grouchy coo. I'm letting him figure it out himself, but its been 38 min now that he's been trying. I'm really confused, was he just very OT when I laid him down at 1:30? Or is he UT, since he can't seem to quite drift off? Arrggh so frustrating, he's such a good baby and I feel like I'm failing him a little bit by not being able to figure out how to meet his scheduling needs. 

Oh, earlier I forgot to mention that he did have 1 less NW last night due to your advice. He woke up at 12:00 (A sure sign of being hungry IMO since its not the "usual" time.) I fed him a bottle since I had just pumped. Then we repeated the process again at 5:00 am (I had figured he wouldn't wake so I pumped and he woke up 15 min later so he got another bottle.)

Since the key to his NW seems to be just that its normal, and or that I need to work on his day sleep should I repost this in the naps forum?

[becj86]

Happy to keep helping here. If you want to post elsewhere though, let me know. You're probably better off on the EASY forum than Naps - its all about your whole EASY really, getting as many good full feeds into the day to minimise hunger NW's, getting the right A times and good naps.

I went ahead and tried to lay him down at 1:30, he has been diligently trying to get himself to sleep since. He lays there thumb in mouth suckling like a fanatic eyes closed, body wriggling with frustration. Every 5-10 min he gets frustrated enough to let out a single cry or grouchy coo. I'm letting him figure it out himself, but its been 38 min now that he's been trying. I'm really confused, was he just very OT when I laid him down at 1:30? Or is he UT, since he can't seem to quite drift off?

I would say that he was undertired when you put him down (hence he couldn't quite get to sleep) and is probably overtired now.

[brownc623]

Thanks for your help bec! I have a question... Since you said to check the EASY forum I went out and started reading the FAQ, and found that here: Starting E.A.S.Y. at Four Months or Older It says that you should take baby back 20 min before his S time and that the S time doesn't include the average of 20 minutes it takes to get baby to get completely to sleep. It says that the average 4 month old can have 1:30 of playtime. I think I've been logging my EASY wrong as I take baby back to his room at 1:30 after he wakes from his last nap (when I thought he was OT) then I usually get him settled in his crib which takes maybe 5 min and I count S as starting as soon as he stops fussing and I can walk out of the room without him crying. He is pretty much mostly either touchy or textbook so I'm now thinking that it is taking him about 15 min on his own after I leave the room before he's completely asleep? If this is correct then I'm actually keeping him up 1:50 when he's OT and 2:05 hrs when he's not OT.

So my questions are as follows:

1. How do I know when he's really asleep? I had been counting it because he is still, eyes closed, etc.
2. If he's actually currently at his recommended A, what should I do about these short naps?

So then considering that I've been incorrectly reporting his EASY, adding 15 min for baby to get to sleep it actually looks more like this:

E: 7:02
A 7:02- 9:00
S 9:00 - 9:30am
Y
E 10:10 am
A 9:30- 11:25am
S 11:25 - 12:00
Y
E 12:35
A 12:00 - 2:08
S 2:08-3:06 (Baby woke from this nap in a great mood!)
Y
E 3:08
A 3:08 - 4:55
S 4:55 - 5:36
Y
E 5:36
A (current) 5:36 - 7:15
S (hopeful) 7:15 - bedtime
Y
Planning to try 11:00 DF


Side note: I've been all day working on his feeds since then to eliminate his pre-nap top off so that he will not develop snacking issues at night (Which I don't think is his problem right now, but better to head it off before it happens)

[becj86]

S time is when baby is actually asleep, A time is eyes open to eyes shut, includes eating and wind down.

How do I know when he's really asleep? I had been counting it because he is still, eyes closed, etc.

This sounds like my version of asleep.

S 11:25 - 12:00
Y
E 12:35
A 12:00 - 2:08
S 2:08-3:06 (Baby woke from this nap in a great mood!)

This suggests that his optimum A time is somewhere a little more than 2hr10 - he'd had two short naps with reasonable A times after them and still did a slightly UT nap (but better in the overall scheme of things).

[brownc623]

Thanks again for your help bec! I totally agree that getting his EASY right is what we need to work on. Yesterday was totally a messed up day because of driving home from grandma's, and as such we were forced to keep him up for an A of well over 2 hours, when we got home he had a 2 hour long nap, the first decent nap he has had in over a week.

If you want to post elsewhere though, let me know. You're probably better off on the EASY forum than Naps - its all about your whole EASY really, getting as many good full feeds into the day to minimise hunger NW's, getting the right A times and good naps

I'm going to spend the next 2 weeks following Starting E.A.S.Y. at Four Months or Older and I plan to post on the EASY board as I also have questions about snacking and fussy behavior at a regular interval.

[becj86]

Great I hope you see some success!

[brownc623]

Becj, I haven't been able to get a reply on the EASY board for help with my current question. Maybe you know the answer?

Since before we started EASY and with every EASY schedule we've tried exactly 1 hour after waking from his nap my son gets really grumpy, and I'm not sure why. He stays grumpy until its time for his nap. By grumpy I mean that he wants to be held, won't tolerate being set down to play, won't tolerate sitting in one place, we often have to walk around the house or neighborhood or he would cry until he's put down to sleep. In the past I thought it was either hunger or tiredness, so prior to learning about EASY I've always fed him (so my EASY was really EAESY) and when I did he would look like he was going to sleep so I put him down for a nap after.

As previously stated I'm doing Starting E.A.S.Y. at Four Months or Older so I haven't been feeding him except right after he wakes. He is still napping poorly, but unlike before I've been able to extend his naps to be at least 1.5 to 2 hours.

So my questions are:

• Is he just hungry? Or is there something else I should be looking at?
• If I need to push him down to 1 feed per A, what is the best way to go about that? I'm hoping there's a way that won't drastically smash his S
• Do I just keep with the plan and let the rest iron itself out? Is there a possibility that a couple weeks on a good schedule will fix the problem?

Here's his EASY from today:
 
w/u 7:00
E 7:00
A 7:00 - 9:03
S 9:03 - 11:00 - had a 9:45 w/u did pat shh and he slept till 11
Y
E 11:00
A 11:00-1:00
S 1:00 - 2:27 - had 2 separate w/u, pat shh & p/u p/d got him back asleep till 2:27
Y
E 2:27
A 2:27 - 4:33
S 4:33 - 5:00
Y
E 5:00
A 5:00 - 7:00
S: 7:00 - Bedtime

Here's his EASY from yesterday:


E 7:00 - 7:10 L & R       (Fed until he pushed away from the breast on L then the same on R)
A 7:00 - 8:15
E 8:00- 8:15 L & R      (I gave in and fed him, he drained both sides)
A 8:15 - 8:58
S 8:58 - 9:32 & 9:46 - 10:40      - did p/u p/d and got him back to sleep -
Y
E 10:40 - 10:54       (7 min L & 7 min R)
A 10:40 - 12:39     
S 12:39 - 1:17 & 1:18 - 2:06pm      - resettled himself without intervention
Y
E 2:06 - 2:16     (7 min R & 3 min L)
A 2:06 - 4:08
S 4:08 - 4:52
Y
E 4:52 - 5:12 (7 min L & 13 min R)
A 4:58 - 7:15
S 7:15 bedtime

NW at 12:00am with a full feed, again at 2:30am I did p/u p/d, then again at 4:00 with another short feed and p/u p/d for about 5 min then slept till 7am this morning.

Thanks in advance for any help or advice!

[becj86]

Hey, I'd say you'll get a response on EASY soon. I'll keep an eye out and if you don't have an answer there when I'm on my way to bed tonight, I'll post there for you - I think that's the best board to keep the questions you're asking now.

Looks like you just need to stick with it - you're getting some reasonable naps and the feeds are better spaced that they have been.

[brownc623]

Becj86 thank you!!

I've gotten Gabe up to 2 hours A time,  implemented a dreamfeed and started WTS for his 4:30 am waking and he STTN from 7:30pm to 6:45am for the first time in weeks!

Following your advice helped me get things ironed out enough to see that the first couple waking were from hunger,  and that the 4:30 was habitual.

He's still waking in the middle of naps, but is going back to sleep 50% of the time with pat shh to have a good nap. I'm still in process of increasing his A to see if that will fix it?  We are up now to 2 hours 10 minutes of a at 21 wks. The naps that I can't extend are usually 1 hour long naps.

I can't thank you enough for all of your help!! :-)

[becj86]

I'm still in process of increasing his A to see if that will fix it?

Yep, I'd say you still need to extend a bit - most babies go from 2hr at 4 months to 2hr45-3hr at 6 months, so 5 months is in the middle and they're usually at 2hr20-30

The naps that I can't extend are usually 1 hour long naps.

These 1hr naps are almost always UT, which lends more weight to your plan to push A times a bit longer yet.

Yay for a good night! Remember to stick with W2S for a week before stopping - takes time to break a habit.