9.5 month Sleep Issues

[kdawson]

My DS is 9.5 months old and his sleep issues are becoming worse and worse.  I woud say he is an average sleeper; he started sleeping through the night around 5 months, morning naps were usually always good but I've always had problems with afternoon naps.

He stopped sleeping through the night around 7.5 months and now he does it only on occasion.  About a month ago he got bronchitis so I started feeding him to sleep because it was the only way.  Right after he wasn't sick he started teething and popped 4 teeth in a short period of time.  He was in a lot of pain and there wasn't much to get him to sleep but...again...feed him to sleep.  Now it is a habit which I know I have to break. 

There are a few other issues though...up until 1 to 2 weeks ago he first morning nap was pretty much a sure thing.  He would go down for 1.5 hours.  Now, he goes down for 60 to 75 minutes.  I thought maybe it was because he wasn't tired enough but he seems very tired 2 hours after he is up and I've kept him up for longer with the exact same result.  Although, I admit I didn't try it long enough to determine if that is a good solution.  Also, it started completely out of the blue.  I also wondered if it was because I was just feeding him to sleep too much and now he is dependant on it.  Before these issues, his first nap he could only stay up for about 2.5'ish hours to get the full 1.5 hr nap.  It was suggested to keep him up for 3 hours which I tried but he slept less than 1.5 hrs so I assume he was OT because once I decreased his A time he was fine.

The second issue is that before when I could feed him to sleep and put him down in his crib he was fine, but now he will wake up and immediantly start crying so I have to feed him until he is in a deep sleep and then transfer him.  I thought if I put him down drowsy or half sleeping I could wean him off this bad habit but it seems to have almost gotten worse.

A few background things about him, he's been crawling for about 2 months, he's EBF with 3 meals a day although he hasn't been eating much lately and a typical day before these issues were as follows:
Wake - 7:00/7:30 with breastmilk
Eat solids - 8:30
Nap 1 - 9:40 to 11:10 with breastmilk
Eat solids - 1:00
Nap 2 - 2:00/2:30 to 3:00/3:30 with breastmilk
Eat solids - 5:30'ish
Bedtime 7:30'ish with breastmilk
Wakes 1 to 2 times a night and I need to feed him to sleep when he wakes up

Please help and give advice to get him off this bad habit and also give some reasoning for his bad sleep!! I feel exhausted and am having a really hard time with it.  I am starting to get depressed which is bad for the whole family.  Thanks so much!!

[Ima shel Alon]

(((Hugs))), hun, I know how hard it is, I was there myself and it's not a nice place at all!

I think what is happening are two things - he is not getting enough A and his naps are UT and you have the issue of the NW (that could be caused because he is UT or because he is waking up which is natural (we also do it as adults) and doesn't know how to go back to sleep so he's calling mommy to help him, 'cause she's got this really nice and warm milk!
If 2:40h A time gave you good naps in the past and now LO is doing only 2h A time then you need to go back to 2:40h A and even that will not be enough for his age, but will at least bring us half way there. I would p his A to 2:15h for the next 3 days, then up it to 2:30h for 3 days and then bring it up to 2:40h. If after 3 days you see that naps are still short (45min-1:20h long) then you go up to 2:55h A time and we'll take it from there. If you look here you see that most babies his age are doing between 3h and 4h A time.
Don't be alarmed if you are getting OT naps a few days (that will be 30-35min naps), that's normal and will pass. That's also the reason why you stick to the same higher A for 3 days so you prevent him from getting OT.

WRT the NF you have two options if you want to stop them. One is to go cold turkey on it and do PU/PD when he wakes up or you can reduce the time of the feed gradually - shorten the feed by 1 minute every 3 nights. You are the only one who can decide what is best for you as you (and DH) know your LO best and will also know what will work best for the two of you to do. Some babies are more sensitive so cold turkey will not work, some babies (like mine ;P) needed a clean cut - mommy is either doing this with me or that. The first few nights ARE difficult, I won't lie to you, but it is possible if like Tracey said, you start as you mean to go on.

Let me know what you think and how things are going. You are not doing it alone, I am holding your hand through it

[kdawson]

Thanks so much Ima for your support and for getting back to me so fast.  It was great to open this up and find your reply.  Sometimes I feel desperate and need some advice fast!  I've been thinking about your reply and a few other things.....

For the A times, he does seem tired earlier than 3 hours but I haven't put him down for a nap prior to 2.5 hours and because he isn't falling asleep right away anyway, he hasn't been falling asleep for 3 to 4 hours anyway.  Therefore, I'll definitely keep working on the A time.  Because he is so close to 10 month mark and transitioning to 1 nap, do you think I should let him sleep for a full 1.5 hours for his first nap?  I ask because he is the type who needs a longer A time before bed and I don't want to push his 2nd nap later in the afternoon.

As for the feeding to sleep, this is what I was thinking and let me know your thoughts.  My husband has the first week of January off so I was going to let him do PU/PD with my son for his naps until he goes to sleep on his own.  I think cold turkey for him is needed.  Hopefully that doesn't end up being too bad.  I was also thinking about cutting out breastmilk during the day and only feeding him when he wakes up and when he goes to bed and the giving him homo milk between.  Do you think he'll be getting enough breastmilk if I do this?  I feel that by cutting out these feeds it is preparing him to go to daycare at 12 months and also preparing him to sleep more independantly.

Also, I put him down for his 1st and 2nd nap based on the amount of A time he has and not by the clock.  But since he gets up between 6:30 and 7:30am this means he could go down for his first nap between 9:30 and 10:30.  My husband believes he needs to have a routine and go down at aproximately the same time and that this is contributing to the problems.  What are your thoughts?

Thanks so much

[Ima shel Alon]

do you think I should let him sleep for a full 1.5 hours for his first nap?

I think yes, till you start and see the signs to start the transition to 1 nap, like refusing the PM nap, UT NW or EW. You can read more here: from 2 to 1 nap - how, when and the bumps

I was also thinking about cutting out breastmilk during the day and only feeding him when he wakes up and when he goes to bed and the giving him homo milk between.

Looking at your EASY you are already feeding in about 4h gaps, right? This is very good for a BF baby and I think the only thing you need to do is shift the feeds to WU instead of before naps. That way he would still get the same amount of milk he is getting now. If you start and think that he is short napping because he is hungry then you can always offer a top up (a short one) before a nap and to make sure it's spaced enough from the sleep that he doesn't connect the two.
I am no expert with BF, but I wouldn't start and feed less than you do now, because it may effect your supply. Also if you stop the NF all together at once you might have an issue with supply. Maybe it's better to reduce them gradually or pump gradually (so same like you'd do with LO if you chose the second option, but instead you pump).

giving him homo milk

I am not sure what that is. Is it Formula?

My husband believes he needs to have a routine and go down at aproximately the same time and that this is contributing to the problems.

I am a big fan of counting A because it has always worked for me. I know of some mommies here who did set naps and it worked fine for them, but I am afraid I can't give any advice about it. I don't even know what Tracey said about set naps, she was mainly talking about working with the A. Her idea was that a baby is not working by a schedule but a routine.
In a way I can relate to your DH, I had this thought many times when things were difficult for us (my DS was never a good sleeper) but I couldn't face the long time that you need to do set naps till they settle and LO's body clock is ok. And then they reach the next phase and need their naps to be shift again, yk?
I found that tweaking the A is not as hard as it seems (keep a log, that helps a lot!) and once I knew what is an OT nap (30-35min) and an UT nap (45min-1:20h) and I saw a few days of pattern then I knew if to reduce or up the A.

Good luck! And a happy new year!

[kdawson]

Thanks so much again Ima!.  I read your post when you sent it and have been waiting to see if there has been any change.  We've had some ups and downs. 

His sleep issues did get better for the day naps but his night time sleeps have gotten bad again.  I decided not to do PU/PD with him as I originally planned because I think what he is going through is developmental and hoping it will pass which it has somewhat.  At the end of the month I was thinking of doing PU/PD for his naps and then feeding him when he gets up as you suggest.  Note, homo milk is homogenized milk with the fuller 3.25% fat (as per your previous question).  I have been giving this to him as well as breastmilk so he gets used to it in preparation for when he goes to daycare.

Some good news......your suggestion to keeping him up to 3 hours before putting him down for his 1st nap as worked so he is getting more sleep for his naps which is great.  I think that may have partly been the problem why he was crying for his first nap; because he wasn't really tired.  Only small issue is that he is getting up later in the afternoon and I am not sure if it is affecting his night sleep which you'll read next.

The issue lately is that he has been getting up anywhere between 4:45 to 6:00am for the past 3 days when he normally gets up between 7:00 to 7:30.  I know he is still very tired because he cries when he wakes up and I feed him hoping he'll go back to sleep which he does but as soon as I put him in the crib he wakes up and starts crying again.  It's as if he is only in a really light sleep.  I even tried tgetting him back down to sleep for 1.5 hrs one morning with no success.  Because of this I have to put him down for his first nap (but really more like a continuation from his night sleep) around 7:00am which I think is making the habit worse but it is impossible to keep him up.  I accidentally woke him up at 5:30am previously (I thought it was 6:30am) when he stirred in his room but the next day he woke up at his usual time.  However, the day after is when this started happening.  Do you think it is because I accidentally woke him up that one day??

I was thinking about doing w2s this morning at 4:00am to see if that would break the habit...if that's what it is.  Any suggestions?? 

Also, as a side, I've been having a really hard time getting him down for the night again.  He usually wakes up between 1 to 3 times within a couple of hours of putting him down and I have to feed him to get him to go back down.  This is the second time where it has been this bad.  I've noticed he does this when he is very active.  It's as if he can't shut his mind off and the lightest noise wakes him up.  Even when I am feeding him he's kicking his legs or moving his hands...it's as if I fed him all kinds of caffiene before bed.  Have you experienced this?  The first time it happened I was really worried which is when I started this post but then it just went away so I am not as concerned of it being a habit.  Since birth he's woken up shortly after falling to sleep and it seems to come in phases.

[Ima shel Alon]

Do you think it is because I accidentally woke him up that one day??

No, I don't think so We often think we effect their sleep so much, I was like that as well, but I don't think we have so much power!

I was thinking about doing w2s this morning at 4:00am to see if that would break the habit...if that's what it is.  Any suggestions?? 

That's an option. But if the EW is due to something in the routine then I don't think it's going to work. Do you let him take a full nap in the afternoon? If you do and he is napping 1.5h then it's probably too much day sleep for him and he is ready to start the 2-1 transition and get one of his naps capped.
What you are describing at BT can be a few things. It can either be like I said, UT and too much day sleep, or it can be that his A time is not enough before BT. The other thing is OS - is there a lot going around at home in the evenings? Like DH coming back from work or tele is working? Music? That can cause "awake" BT.
Do you think it could be discomfort? Some women have a low supply in the evening and maybe he is frustrated that he needs to wait long for the milk?

All in all it sounds like you already have a good progress, we just need to figure out the EW and you'll be set, no?

[kdawson]

Good to know I wasn't the one who started him waking early

My husband and I actually started PU/PD with him the night before last so that he is no longer needing me to fall asleep.  The first night was pretty rough, as expected.  He didn't get to sleep until 10:20.  The next day with his first nap it took 30 mintues and the second nap yesterday took 15 minutes and he barely cried.  Last night again was a bit more difficult than naps but better than the night before by far.  Overall I notice a huge difference.  He is pretty OT but I already find he doesn't look for me to BF him and I can tell he is really working hard on trying to put himself to sleep.  I have no regrets doing this and it is actually very rewarding seeing him trying to sooth himself and eventually fall asleep.  I wish I started it earlier but oh well.

As for the EW, even though he didn't fall asleep until 8:30 last night he still woke up at 5:30am.  He had a 1.5 hour nap in the morning before (expected since he got such little sleep the night before) and then a 1 hour nap in the afternoon which he got up at 3:10pm.  I admit he didn't seem tired when I put him to bed at 7:20 last night but by around 7:45/8:00 he was.  I'll have to figure out how long he needs to stay awake before bed.  I know it is at least 4 hours but possibly more.  No that you mention it, I am sure it is a routine thing but I'll have to figure out what to do. 

When he gets a full night sleep he can definitely do 3hrs A time in the morning but he hasn't been getting great night sleeps. So, do I keep him up until the time he should be going down (say around 10:00am assuming he should be getting up around 7:00am) or do I put him to sleep when he is tired (which would be closer to 8:00am when he gets up at 5:30)?  I guess what I am asking is whether I should be following a strict routine since I am doing PU/PD with him or should I follow his sleep cues?

[Ima shel Alon]

I have no regrets doing this and it is actually very rewarding seeing him trying to sooth himself and eventually fall asleep.  I wish I started it earlier but oh well.

This is awesome news! I am so happy!
I remember this feeling myself, and actually we tried PU/PD earlier and it was really really hard but when DS was like 9m old and we did PD (because he was pulling himself already) it was so much easier and faster.

I guess what I am asking is whether I should be following a strict routine since I am doing PU/PD with him or should I follow his sleep cues?

Neither
At this age sleepy cues are very difficult to see. Perhaps you can, so by all means go for it, but I know for us they were almost non existing and when I tried looking for them DS always ended up OT. And a strict routine is also not the way to go, IMO, because if you put him down at 10 instead of 8 he is going to be massively OT. The best way if you ask me is to count A. If you know his A in the morning then you simply count the time from the moment he woke up till his nap. It might be that the day is longer than and the PM nap would need to be a tiny bit longer to last him till BT or you'd need to do an EBT (that's what most mommies do).

I find it hard to believe that he would need 3h A time in the morning and more than 4h before BT, that's a huge gap. Most babies' A times vary by 15-30min during the day, so perhaps his A time in the morning is too short or the last A time is too long and he is going to bed OT - both could explain EW.
Sorry, didn't mean to confuse you more

[kdawson]

Thanks Ima.  You haven't confused me more...just so many questions and trying to determine the next steps.  This is where I need help with; the next steps.

So with the EWs it could be OT or UT and I am trying to figure out which one it is.  Previously he was fine with his routine which consisted of a short A time in the am and a longer A time in the pm.  Therefore, I would think the longer A time in the pm isn't the issue.  I've also noticed that in the sample EASY routines for 10 month olds a few have shorter A times in the morning and longer in the pm.  Therefore, is the only other logical reasoning for the EW is that he needs longer A time in the morning?  What are your thoughts?  Also, if this is the case, why do you think he would still have EWs when he has a longer (possibly too long) A time in the am.  Sometimes I keep him up knowing he will be OT because I don't want to make it a habit of going to bed shortly after getting up but if I recall he still gets up early.  Maybe that is because he is OT that lasts throughout the day and night?

Because his routine is out of sorts and he wakes up early, he could be back in bed as early as a few hours after waking, therefore this could be 7:30'ish.  His sleep cues are quite obvious when is OT after a bad nights sleep but after that, as you say, it isn't obvious at all.  Just to make sure, would you still put him to bed that early?  I know you suggest counting A time but the A time is atypical because of the bad nights sleep.

I will keep track of his EASY for the next few days as well so you can have a look.

Thanks!!!

[Ima shel Alon]

Not an easy one.
How early is the EW now? Are you trying to settle it or just starting the day?
If it's 4 or 5 I would always deal with it like a NW, so in your case do PU/PD. I could imagine that if it's OT then he would fall back to sleep after a while.
Have you considered trying W2S? Maybe there was an issue with the routine that caused the EW and it stayed there even after the problem is solved, because it's habitual. Is it happening every morning at approx. the same time?

Maybe these are of some interest?
Early Morning Wakings
How to address habitual wakings (w2s and other methods)

If you think he is doing fine with the 4h stretch to BT, then how about trying to increase the morning A and see if it makes a difference? It could be that 3h is not enough for him anymore.

[kdawson]

The EW are a bit better but not sure why or how.  I did do w2s for the past 2 nights but to be honest I am not sure how helpful its been because the first night he moved right before I went in.  Regardless, I am going to do w2s tonight as well at 4:00am just to be sure.

Here was his routine the past few days keeping in mind the time he went to sleep may be longer than intended in many cases because we are still doing PD:
Day 1
wake at 7:30 YEAH!
A - 3 hr, 5 min
S - 10:35 to 11:50, 1 hr 15 min
A- 3 hr 20 min
S - 3:15 to 4:10, 55 min
A - 4 hrs 20 min
Bedtime - 8:30 (took 45 minutes to get him down for the night)

Day 2
wake at 6:20, just under 10 hrs sleep (seemed tired but not too bad when he woke up)
A - 3 hr 20 min
S - 9:40 to 11:00, 1 hr 20 min (woke up at 10:30 but put himself back to sleep)
A - 3 hrs 50 min
S - 2:50 to 3:20, 30 min (was a little baffled on the short nap because it took a little bit for him to go down but he actually seemed fine and not OT)
A - 3 hr 45 min.
Bedtime - 8:05 (didn't cry at all but it took 30 min. to get him to sleep and he seemed restless and fidgety so thinking he was OT which is expected)

Do you see anything that really sticks out in his routine that I should be changing?  A question on OT and UT....can he still be OT but sleep for over an hr?  If yes, how would someone know?  I wondered if that was happening for his first nap on Day 2.  Also, if he wakes up again early next morning (less than 11 hrs sleep because I think that's at least what he needs) can I assume he was OT when I put him to bed?

Thanks, you've been a great help!!

[Ima shel Alon]

The EW are a bit better but not sure why or how.  I did do w2s for the past 2 nights but to be honest I am not sure how helpful its been because the first night he moved right before I went in.  Regardless, I am going to do w2s tonight as well at 4:00am just to be sure.

W2S takes about a week do finish, so you do it for a week and then you hold back and see if it helped. It could be that the reason you see a better WU is because of the W2S.
You didn't mention in your EASY if there were NW, but all in all your days look much better than when you started the thread. I am very happy you managed to get to a higher A and that you can already see results.
The amount of sleep sounds ok to me, even though I would be aiming to get 1 good nap and 1 short nap. I still think both naps are UT and IIWY I would be working on upping the morning A. You already increased from 3:05h to 3:20 so I would stick with that for 3 more days and see then. You don't want to play too much with the A time because he will get OT either from too much A or from not enough sleep (even if naps are UT).
The second A I would do slightly higher than the first one but not as long as 3:50, perhaps 3:35 to start with (the 3:50 gave you an OT nap). And the last A, I still think it's a bit too long. Many babies *need* a long A before BT, but not that long. I would keep it to 3:45h max.

can he still be OT but sleep for over an hr?  If yes, how would someone know?

Yes, that can happen. Sometimes LO is so OT that they crash through the sleeping cycles, but I am not sure at all this is the case for you.
Another indication with OT or UT is the way LO wakes up from a nap. If they are calm and happy but nap was short that indicates UT and if they are crying and seem like they didn't mean to wake up that indicates OT. For us, this never worked, my DS always woke up crying from naps, even if he slept for 2h

Also, if he wakes up again early next morning (less than 11 hrs sleep because I think that's at least what he needs) can I assume he was OT when I put him to bed?

Like I said before, this could be a possible reason, but it can also be because of an increased A that he is not used to yet and that makes him OT from the entire day or first nap is too early.
FX that the EW is gone and that it will just keep on getting better now!

[kdawson]

Those are all great suggestions and I will keep trying to work towards that.  From your suggestions I take it an 'ideal' day would look somewhat like below (of course that will really vary): 
Wake 7:00
Nap 1 - 10:30 - 12:00
Nap 2 - 3:30/3:45 to 4:15
Bedtime - 8:00

I'll continue to work on increasing his first and second A time and shortening the A time before bed.  I think I'll keep track of his schedule for the next few days again and ask you take another look.

Also, you asked about the NW...he has had NW the past 2 nights but not the one prior.  But I'll keep track of these as well.

As a side note, he fell asleep on his one for the first time in a while this afternoon.  Very exciting!!  I am also finding that since he only BF 4 times a day and no longer during the night he eats A LOT more during the day....like 2 to 3 times as much.  I wasn't expecting that but I am sure it is a good thing!

[Ima shel Alon]

Wow, that sounds very good! I am happy he fell asleep by himself and feeds better. The small joys of being a mommy

The routine you suggested looks good, but like you said it might vary. It could be that the second A needs to be 10-15min longer than the first one.
Let me know how you are doing.

[kdawson]

I am back!  My son's sleep has definitely gotten better but I am at the point where his last nap of the day is getting too late in the day.  For example, here is his schedule for today:
Wake - 6:15
Nap 1 - 10:00 to 11:15
Nap 2 - I tried putting him down at 4:00 but he just didn't seem tired and he was fussing so I brought him bak out (hopefully that isn't a really bad thing to do).

Do I try again at 4:30 or just keep him up until bedtime and have an early bedtime at say 6:30?  At what point do you go down to 1 nap (keeping in mind that some days I am sure he will still need 2).  For example, if I can keep him up for 4.5 hrs A time, is that a good time to start the 1 nap transition?  He'll be in daycare starting mid-February so he has to go down to 1 nap by then.  Any advice??  Should I wake him from his first nap so he is tired enough for the second?  So many questions!  :-)