Twin chaos after illness help!

[Jojogreeneyes]

Hi am not sure where to post this so apologies if I've picked the wrong place..

I have 8.5 month old twin boys who I was about to start sleep training with , we'll with one mainly when just before Xmas they got ill with a horrible sickness bug that lasted 2 weeks. They both were sick in their cots a couple of times and because I was so concerned about choking I had them in bed a few nights. Now one twin will not stay in his cot for more than 30 mins he wakes screaming and can't be shushed and as to be picked up. He settles quickly then as soon as I lower him back in he cries again. He is a spirited baby and just started crawling and seems to have no time for sleep. His brother used to be better staying in his cot most if the night except for a drink of water now and agin but now he wakes hourly and wants a feed too. He is generally a calmer baby on the whole.

Their routine is :

Wake at 6.30 ( can be anytime from 5.30 even when in the bed with us).
Milk formula at 7
Breakfast 8
Sleep 9.30 for 1 hour occasionally 1.5hrs ( in bouncey chairs)
Lunch 12
Sleep 1-2 for an hour
Bottle 3.30
Tea 4.30
Bottle and story at 6.30
Sleep 7.00

A time is 3 -3.5 hours. They are generally asleep when they go to bed at night after their last bottle then the fun starts ! It's so tiring when both boys won't sleep I know I need to tackle it for them but I just don't know where to start. I thought I should separate them when I start the sleep training but tats as far as I've got with thinking it through. 

Can anyone please help?
 

[*Ali*]

How did they go to sleep before the illness? Independently or with props?

Do you have anyone who could come over and help you or will you be doing this alone?

[Jojogreeneyes]

Thanks for the reply. My partner could help but he works away some nights but my mum lives close by and could help.   Before they were ill they took naps in their bouncer chairs one twin uses a dummy to get to sleep sometimes. On a night they are generally asleep when I put them in their cots as they fall asleep having their last bottle.  One twin seemed before to be able to go back to sleep in the night with a shush but now he wants to come into our bed.  His brother has always been a restless sleeper and woke more often in the night for settling but now he wants to be on the bed with me all the time I feel such a failure for getting to nearly 9 months with them and still not having their sleep sorted but twins are adorable but such hard work!

[*Ali*]

Ok you have a couple options. You could do Gradual removal of the prop (co-aleepibg). Here is a link on how to do that GRADUALLY WEAN CO-SLEEPING:HELP YOUR BABY TO FALL BACK TO SLEEP ON HIS OWN

Or you could do pick up put down which will likely be.much quicker but involve more crying. You will be there to soothe him through the crying though as BW doesn't believe in leaving babies to cry alone.


Which do you think you would prefer?

[Jojogreeneyes]

I think I prefer the gradual approach as I'm not sure i have the willpower to cope with the crying and I think it's more likely that helpers will stick to it to.

 How long does the gradual approach take vs pupd generally?  With pupd if he cries how long would I soothe him for?  Also with both approaches should I be trying to put them both to bed a bit awake now or do I wait until I have tackled the co sleeping issue first?

Last night he spent a few hours in his cot then came on the bed had milk at 2.30am refused to go back in his cot then slept until 7am. His brother was awake off and on a lot but stayed in his cot most of the night only coming on the bed about 5am when he would not settle.

[*Ali*]

How long it takes depends on your LO as well as how consistent you are. You're probably talking weeks with GW rather than days with PUPD.

Here is a link to how to do PUPD in an age appropriate manner. How to PU/PD (inc age adaptations)

With GW you would probably start putting him to sleep first and then putting him in the cot and when he is used to that you would start putting him down drowsy but awake and giving less and less help over the course of the training period.

[Jojogreeneyes]

Thank you I need to discuss with my helpers I think as its important we can all stick to same method isn't it its me I worry about with the crying really as I stopped the car twice on a 20 min journey due to crying the other day it seems to go right through me !  I am nervous of pupd I think because I hate to see their tears Even though I know it's for their benefit.   One other thing  please should I tackle night then naps or everything at once?

[*Ali*]

Personally I would tackle naps and then nights. It was be easier in the day when you aren't trying to sleep yourself and under the time pressure to get them back to sleep. You may find when you get them independently sleeping for naps that some of the nighttime issues sort themselves out because they can now self-soothe.

I think it would be a lot to ask that they settle inde at night when they don't do so at the start of sleep.

I know Tracy said to be consistent and do it all at once though.

[Jojogreeneyes]

Thanks I think that's a good idea I just need to make sure I have a helper to deal with the other twin to the one I'm settling then.

[Jojogreeneyes]

Ok so I've not been able to start with naps as I'm solo daytime but we have started gradual withdrawal for night wakings. It's tough going though the boys seem to be waking each other and I've managed one night with one twin in his bed all night, lots of shush patting but he stayed in apart from night feeding. Now I have a question on this ad both now seem to need a least 1 night feed as one twin will not settle back to sleep unless he has milk at the moment about 12.00.  He used to go without a feed from bedtime to morning before how to I wean them off this feed please?

I think they ate teething but giving meds seems to wake them up more?

Is waking up every 30 mins or so down to pain or over tiredness?

Their A time is about 3 hrs 10-15 at moment should it be more they are now almost 9 months and I'm desperate for some sleep !

Sorry my post is so random I'm only sleeping about 3 hrs now in 30 min intervals so I think my brain us super slow!

Any further advice is very welcome please

[*Ali*]

If the feed is hunger driven you can try increasing the bottles up in the day and even offering an extra couple ounces an hour after their usual bottles, perhaps after solids. How many ounces are they drinking in the day? And at the night feed? You are formula feeding correct?

Some people also offer less and less at NWs or water down gradually.

If the feed is just a habit (I appreciate it can be hard to tell sometimes) then the only way to wean that is to consistently resettle without feeding. You can use the same method you are using for other NWs and settling for naps and BT.

Waking frequently does sound like pain or discomfort. Are allergies or intolerances a possibility at all? Gas? If it's after resettling without feeding it could also be hunger. OT does cause NWs but not every 30 mins every night. And they shouldn't be so OT on two decent naps and the reasonable A times they are doing. It could even be UT if you think they need an A time bump. Some LOs are doing 3-4 hrs for A time at 9mo so they could well need a bump. That would be after a decent nap though of around 1.5hrs or so. They would need less A time after a nap of an hour or less.

[Jojogreeneyes]

I will try giving milk after solids thats a great idea as they are not finishing their daytime bottles at the moment so adding more in that way is difficult. I am formula feeding yes sorry I should have said 

When I fed z this am after a gap of about 6 hours from his night feed ( after lots of resettling) he almost snatched the bottle off me so he must be hungry. We also gave meds in the night too.

I don't think allergies are an issue but gas could be as they both can suffer from that all we do us try ad burp them or I try some baby yoga sometimes.

I wondered about UT too and am trying longer A time today they just did over3.5 hrs after a rubbish nights sleep so hopefully their nap will be ok too.

What time should bedtime be at this age I'm getting them in for 7 at present as they are falling asleep with their last bottle I assume that's the right time but maybe not?

I'll try offering more milk today and see if that and the increased A time help and let you know.

I really hope for some improvement soon as DH is saying he thinks sleeping trainings not working and wants to quit, not sure at other suggestions he as tho!

[*Ali*]

It's definitely easier to sleep train when they are on the right routine so hopefully q bump in A time will help.

7pm sounds like an ideal BT. We tend to suggest a 12hr day, sometimes slightly more of they don't quite make a 12hr night or are close to dropping a nap and A times are hard to fit in.

Let us know how it goes.

[Jojogreeneyes]

Ok update is: tried getting them to try a special 'extra satisfying' feed - 1 refused as didn't like vari flow test. 2 tried it then gagged and was nearly sick due to extra flow, maybe I could try in a beaker but they are not taking to te speed of flow very well. Might have to park that idea. I tried extra milk in the day too and they had some after their solids so will give it another go today.

Z was fed TWICE last night, and at best slept for 2 hours. S was better I think after his A time was3.5 hours and resettled himself once which I am very proud of  he had one feed which I'm not sure he really wanted and both were not hungry fr their breakfast.

I might start moving S onto the next stage now and try settling him in his bed almost asleep and see how that goes. With Z I am at a loss DH declared this shush shush thing a failure last night so I'm not sure how hard he is trying to make it work but once gain no suggestions for a plan B were mentioned after the 4am moan fest! I think I'll just have to try with Z and see if I have any more luck resettling him.

Is there a growth spurt around 9 months that could be causing Z's hunger do you know?

They are also both waking up when they have turned onto their tummies or for S sitting up too.

I'm finding hard to push Zs A time when he is so tired from a rubbish nights sleep, should I just press on?

[Jojogreeneyes]

Hi there soooo things are no better in fact they are worse!  Both boys just were teething and now they are through I need to get back on track and think I might have to try PUPD  I am desperate and fed up of getting no sleep with the boys both in bed every night.

What A time should I be looking at know at 9 months and also when do you move them to one nap please !

Sorry if this us all jumbled I'm so sleep deprived today I could cry!