Desperate and no idea what is happening with 21 month old

[Lyna]

We are not worried about safety really. he room is quite spacious and since she was little there has always been a double bed in her room. What we did once we realized she was climbing out, was stick the cot to the bed. She is smart enough to know that climbing out on that side makes matters easy. From cot to bed and the climbing down from the bed which she has been doing for ages now. We have "spied" on her to make sure she is getting down the right way and she always does, so that took the hurry to change away.

We are planning to move her to a twin almost at floor level and thinking about the bed guards.

Still wondering whether WI/WO or GW?

[Lyna]

Hi Vicky (I think?),

Obviously climbing out of the cot is a big worry as LO's have broken bones

We are not concerned about safety as we were while on holiday. Her room is very spacious and there has always been a big bed in her room. What we decide to do was to stick the cot to the bed and she is smart enough to know that the whole thing is much easier if she climbs out on the side of the bed and then climb down from the bed. We "spied" on her several times to make sure she was climbing out the right way and she does.

The twist in the routine has helped in the routine itself (she is not fighting all along the routine) but it is making not much of a difference for BT. She is still fighting it no matter what. DH is currently with her trying to put her down (it has been close to 40 minutes since we started). I am still wondering if we should stick to WI/WO or GW. Right now it is like a combination of both in the sense that if we leave as soon as she is calm, she starts crying her lungs out immediately whereas if we stay with her a bit longer closer to drifting, she tends to stay but not necessarily sleeps and eventually starts crying softly but then it escalates and we go back in. After many times of this, she eventually sleeps. Lately she is going down easier with DH.   

[Lolly]

What time was wake up, nap and bedtime today?

There were 2 reasons why my two were a nightmare at bedtime - either they were undertired or we missed their "slot" and they were actually overtired and had a second wind. If I get the timing right it's a lot smoother.

Laura

[Lyna]

Hi Laura,

WU was at 6.30
Nap was at 1pm to 3
BT started at 8 but ended up being 9.

I have read a lot of mums writing about "missing the window" as you say, but Maia has always been very flexible there. BT should have been slightly earlier today but it was grandpa's birthday and that took us a bit longer. Then again, even the days we have been on the spot have been hard.

Thanks again!

[Lyna]

Hi all,

We seem to have settled the schedule alright. This is what the past two days have looked like:

WU 7
Nap 1/1.15-3/3.15 (we capped it at two hours)
Heading for BT at 8

However, we have not been able to actually go to bed at 8. The best scenario was 8.20 but it tends towards 8.40 or 9  . I have two doubts still. In this last period I though her nap was going beyond two hours (close to 3 and some times more) because of the EW. However, now that she is waking at a normal time we are still capping the nap. I am wondering if at this point it would be better to let her sleep a bit longer in her nap and then head to bed at 8.30-9 since that is the time she is falling asleep ANYWAY. Any thoughts?

The second doubt is still whether we should go with WI/WO or GW...

[Lolly]

I think whether you do WI/WO or GW has to be up to you really - you know your LO best. What's wrong with the combination you are doing now?

If she isn't going to sleep until 8.30/9 ish on 2 hours nap I really doubt she will sleep at that time with a longer nap - it would probably be more like 9.30/10. I'd try capping the nap at 1.5 hours rather than letting her sleep longer really and see if she will go to sleep earlier and have a longer night rather than a longer nap.

Laura

[Lyna]

Well, I fear that if we keep on doing some GW, it will take longer, but if the combination is ok then we can stick to it.


We think to some extent she is not fighting the sleep as such but she is fighting the cot. Even in the middle of this situation we decided to make the change to the bed a couple of days ago (twin mattress on the floor in Montessori style). We went to buy the twin with her and built a whole story around it. We were going to build a new castle for her to sleep in. We got the puzzle rubber carpet to put beneath it and said that was the floor of the castle, then we put the mattress saying that was the bed where she and her little bunny (transitional object) were moving into and then we set up the mosquito net as walls and roof of the castle. She loved it and played all afternoon in it. Everything that she loves doing she was bringing inside (blocks, books etc).

Going to sleep went just like the other days but there was also some excitement, I guess about her new full "freedom". She did not fight it though. She just didn't sleep right away and only went down at 9 (we had gone to bed at . At a certain point we found her sleeping with the bottom half of her body outside the mattress by the floor and the top half on top. We rearranged her and let her be. She woke up at 12 crying sitting down and we moved her into the cot. She settled almost immediately.

Yesterday went very well from the bed transition point of view. She slept her whole nap in the bed and woke up in a very good mood. We headed for BT at 8 and she slept at 8.40 (the earliest in a while) and STTN without any trouble. Woke up at 7.10 (the latest in a loooong time). Yaaaaay!!!! This afternoon she did her whole nap again in the bed and woke up well rested.

The problem now is really the APOP that has been going on. DH has winded her down and since the bed is there he has laid with her until she falls asleep. Last night he said "the BW would come and break my neck if she was alive". We are aware that laying with her is probably the worst APOP ever, but we were staying with her by the cot until she was (or almost) asleep anyway in the past days. This is actually more comfortable! On the other hand, since we ST her she could never sleep with us, which we loved most of the times, but every now and then when we wanted her to sleep with us for a while, (even when doing APOP for other reasons) it was impossible. It is the first time since she was 3 months that she actually falls asleep with one of us next to her. we loved her being an independent sleeper but learning to sleep with us is also important for me. I remember when I was little and had a bad dream I would go to my parents and sleep with them. Whenever our DD can't sleep and we tried to bring her with us, it was worst! So from that point of view I am welcoming the fact that she now has learnt to sleep with one of us. Note that she is falling asleep and drifting on her own for the nap. The APOP is happening only in the evening. In my mind I know she can be an independent sleeper and we should be able to move away eventually. What I am not sure is that  we need to be there just because it is the new bed or because she now wants us there (regardless of bed or cot). The process seems to be shorter and with virtually no fighting in the bed so I guess that is better? In the cot even if we were there next to her she would scream sometimes. Are we screwing up big time?

[michaeljacknnugg]

I think you're doing really well!

Do you want to be able to put her in bed for the night and walk away? If so then it may be worth your DH trying to back off a bit - GW or WIWO. I can't remember if she's ever been an independent sleeper? I did stay with my DS for a bit - the transition coincided with potty training and dropping the nap - and was able to leave, so I don't think it sets a pattern if you have previously had an independent sleeper. Could be wrong though!

[Lyna]

Thanks,

This makes us feel we are on the right track. She HAS been an independent sleeper since she was 4 months and until a month ago. Last night went alright though I was with her until she fell asleep (at 8.40 when we headed to bed at 8pm). She STTN with a bit of crying at midnight but settled on her own. The only problems was that we had an EW at 5.20 and we didn't manage to resettle her. This is completely new could it be linked to the whole thing or just a coincidence?

We will start GW/WI-WO tonight.

Lina B

[michaeljacknnugg]

It could be linked to OT if she is waking early. Has she done it previously?

[Lyna]

Not in the past few couple of weeks.

While we were on holiday her sleep was all over the place (which is when I began the thread). Since we came back she seemed to settle with an hour less at night (from 11 hours down to 10 hours), going to bed between 8.30 and 9 and waking up at 7.

Today I did not lay with her but sat next to her. Every time she stood up, I put her back down. It happened several times but then I recognized "her moment" and managed to walk away while she was still awake. Huge step forward since the thread started, but then again, she must have been really tired and wanted to sleep. She woke up at 5.40 this morning, went to nap at 12.55 and slept until 3.15 (we let her catch up a bit instead of the usual capping). We headed for bed at 730 but she only went down at 8.30. I fear she might still be in an OT loop and we could be heading towards another EW tomorrow....
I better go to sleep now.

Thanks again!

[Truly Blessed]

Hi there Honey,

Sorry I have been away so long due to illness.

We went to buy the twin with her and built a whole story around it. We were going to build a new castle for her to sleep in. We got the puzzle rubber carpet to put beneath it and said that was the floor of the castle, then we put the mattress saying that was the bed where she and her little bunny (transitional object) were moving into and then we set up the mosquito net as walls and roof of the castle.

Absolutely wonderful!  she is a very lucky girl to have parents who know her so well and will go so far to help her be happy  .

Last night he said "the BW would come and break my neck if she was alive".

Oh how wrong he is! Tracy was all about taking the time to 'understand' your LO, and you both so obviously do.

Here's the way I see it.....

Sit with DH and decide what it is you want to achieve. Co-sleeping is something that is absolutely fine as long as it done safely and works for you and your family, and those BT snuggles can be precious.  However if you do want her to go back to going to sleep independently the way she is doing for her naps, then IMHO it will be sending her mixed messages at the moment. If however you or DH are happy to do that for the foreseeable, then the only thing to think about is that any NW may result in her wanting you to help her resettle, but only time would tell. I have a hunch that the only reason she wants you there at night is because her day is too long and she is OT, otherwise why is she settling so well at nap time    With a WU of 6.30 I would suggest a BT of 7.30 latest, keeping to a 13 hour day. If she needs extra time to settle, then head in for her WD at 7pm so that she is nice and relaxed by 7.30 which would be the time when ideally she should drift off. I agree with Laura that rather than a long nap/long day scenario, it is better to shorten the nap and have her in bed sooner. IIWM I would start by shaving off 15 mins over the course of a few days, if you decide to go down that road. But I would try for a shorter day as a first port of call. Bear in mind that accumulated OT can work alongside her being UT for the day in hand, and short term UT will generally win at BT, that's something to think about if the shorter day doesn't help, but give it a few days for it to be conclusive.

I hope this helps Hun. Well done on your progress so far 

Vicki.x.

       

[Lyna]

I thought things were getting better and we were getting to the point of closing this thread but we are not. To answer your questions, we definitely want an independent sleeper...we actually already had one but can't seem to find her anymore. We are doing WI/WO consistently for the past 5 days. She is not fighting the routine, nor fighting her new bed, but once we leave her soothing her self she will walk out after a few minutes. As soon as she sees us heading towards her, she walks back into her room and walks straight back into the "casttle" and sometimes she even lays down again on her own, but the minute we walk out the story repeats itself over and over. Has this got to do with UT/OT or with the bed transition or is it developmental? I am sorry to stress on this but she goes down beautifully one her own within seconds for the nap, so we know she CAN sleep on her own.

We have been sticking to 13 hour days (well, trying without success) and tried to start WD 20-30 mins before BT, but we still haven't been able to get her to sleep at the supposed BT. It is always taking us between 40-50 minutes. We are ending up with 10-nights and 14-hour days. We had been capping the nap down to 2 hours but as suggested we started to cap it a bit more yesterday but we don't see a difference so far.

Her yesterday looked like this:

WU: 6.30
nap: 1 - 2.30
we headed for BT at 7.15 but she only slept at 8.20

Today it was like this:

WU: 6.15
nap: 1 - 2.45
We headed to bet at 7.20 (it is 8.20, I just left her on her own and hopefully she has drifted).

It is taking long but she has gone to sleep on her own these days (after several Wi/WO)

Thanks for the support.

[Lolly]

Have you tried a stair gate at her door? I would if you can, so settle her and leave her to it unless she is crying for you. If she chooses to get out of bed so be it, but unless she actually needs you leave her to it.

Laura

[Lyna]

I am terribly sorry. I really thought we were almost done with this thread, but it looks like every time we are almost through with an issue, something else comes along.  Just to summarize, I think the bed transitions is pretty much under control. We have not tries the stair gate because she is not coming out so much and even if she does, as soon as she sees us come her way, she runs straight back to bed. The APOP is also much better. Even though she is still fighting us sometimes to go to bed she has been going to sleep pretty much on her own for the past few weeks, with more or less trouble some times but at least she is drifting on her own. The EW was also sorted out a few eeks ago when we capped her naps.

However, we started having NW last week. These are different from anything we had before so we are not sure how to deal with them. She used to have nightmares every now and then, cry a little bit but then she would sooth herself and go back to sleep on her own without us having to intervene. However, these are completely different. Out of the blue she is fully awake and calling for us...not even coming out of her bedroom or even the bed. She is just calling us but from the tone and volume we know she is fully awake. DH gave it a try the first few times and went to try to sooth her and it made things worse, she started talking and having long discussions and wanting to chat. This went on for over an hour. The story has been very similar since. Sometimes it takes a bit shorter and last night it took 10 mins but we had two more along the night with the last one (at 4.45) actually turning into an EW because even though she was tired, she almost fell asleep twice but couldn't quite make it...

Here schedfuke has been looking more or less like this in the past few days:

WU 6.30-7.00
S 12.30-1.00 until 2.00-2.30
BT 8.

She did have a longer nap yesterday. She was tired from the NW and eventhough she woke up at 7 she went down for the nap earlier (12.30) and slept until 2.45. We didn't want to cap the nap yesterday since we figured she needed to catch up from the previous night. But the NW started happening even when we were having rather normal days. Why is this happening now?
 
Thanks