Help 7.5 month old NW, EMW, and nap hell

[Haribo2012]

Hi I'm new to this forum but am a great follower of the boards and have decided I don't know what I'm doing anymore!
DS is definitely spirited and from about 4 months slept brilliantly at night following use of PU/PD and shush pat but naps have always been an issue with 45 min intruder! Spent a few weeks nipping in and catching him just as waking and extended naps!
Now NW are here, 5am wakings and refusal of 3rd catnap! Last night was the worse he woke every 10 mins from 10.30pm! As he's refusing CN I'm assuming he's OT so have been trying for 6.30 BT but he's fighting me and taking ages to settle! It's like he hyper! He's just started pushing up to sitting and this is how I find him awake and crying, also no teeth yet but drool and chewing loads!

His easy is on a good day
Wake 6.30
E ff 8oz 7.00
E solids 8.00
A 6.30-9.15
S 9.15-10.30

E ff 6oz 10.45
E solids 12
A 10.30-1.30
S 1.30-3.00

E ff 6oz 3.15
E solids 5.00
Bath 6.00
Ff 7oz 6.15
S 6.30

But recently 45 naps have thrown it all off and he won't take another nap!!

[Skadiver13]

Typing this from my Phone will add more when I can but he's what seems to be UT for the first nap with an A of only 2hrs 45min. Would try extedning that first A 5-10 min every other day or so and see if that extends the UT nap. 45 min is classic UT nap. The second issue is you have him doing even more A time of 3hrs after a short nap. He's doing a good 1.5hr nap so he can handle the 3hr A but it might just make OT start creeping in as he'ks then doing an A of 3hrs 30min making him OT and hyper at bedtime.  And he shouldnt need a cat nap at this age. He's doing a 6:30-6:30 so thats not an EW.  What are your NW's like? Because with a 12hr night/day 2 naps at 7.5 months is normal. My LO is high A needs at 7.5 months does one 1.5hr nap in the am and one 45min/1hr nap in the afgernoon on a 13hr day so he's higher A low sleep needs. I would suggest extending that first A to 3hrs and hold for a few days.

[Haribo2012]

Phone typing is hard I meant to add that for the last few days he's been waking at 5am maybe dropping back off for 15 mins but then awake again so I'm really struggling what A time should be before first nap, and how does he make it to bedtime even a 6pm one is last nap finishes at say 2pm?
The NW seem to be starting at about 10.30pm I go in but not until I hear proper crying not grumbling and he's sat up! I've tried picking up and putting back down but this only seems to settle him for 10 mins and it keeps repeating! I gave up and had him in bed last night but he only slept for 4 hours!
So is a 3 hour A time too long after a disrupted night?
I feel like crying as this morning held him asleep for 30 mins to extend first nap....feels like I'm going backwards...

[Skadiver13]

I'm not expert here and I have my own NW with my LO but he's super low sleep needs and just loves to be awake LOL so I'm not expert but this advice is just from my experience.

So the EW is most likely too short an A in the AM. If he can do a 3hr A in the second 1/2 of the day and do a 1.5hr nap that's what I would shoot for. Can you APOP from 5am-6 to get him to sleep for an extra hour for a day or two while you extend the A time? I would rock my LO for a couple days to get him to a more doable wake up time of 6am and then start from there. If he fights and fights you may just have to deal with the OT and start extending his A to say 8 then 8:15 then 8:30 over a few days to get him to a 9am nap time or whatever nap time you want him to be on.

Have you noticed if your LO is high sleep or low sleep needs?

The NW may be because he's OT by the time he hits bedtime. I think by extending that first A you'll solve that EW. As for the 10:30 wake up you can always shoot for a super EBT of 5:30 so that he's not OT by bedtime if he tacks on lost day sleep to night sleep. Or you could shoot for a CN for a few days to get him to bedtime.  Mine never did so EBT never worked for me. In fact I had to move his Bedtime from 6 to 7 to get a 6am wake up and he still wakes for the day at 5am sometimes.  It's a work in progress for us. But honestly I have found that extending that first A time solves the NW and EW and helps organize the rest of the day.

I know how tired you are believe me we have lo's the same age and mine has NEVER slept through the night with severe reflux issues and mspi so know that you are not alone. 

Let me know if this makes sense.

[Haribo2012]

Thanks I will try it out! I find it really hard to read him at the moment I would guess at high sleep needs as he can be looking sleepy really easily! I was always worried of rocking to sleep would loose his self settling ability but am definitely going to try the 5am thing!
Feel there is a developmental thing going on as he was always easy to settle but he's now super interested in everything!!
When he did take his cat nap at 4.30 pm for 30 mins it was all really good but now he refuses even if shattered! Tried super EBT last week and his dad gets in about same time which he then got over excited!!

Once you sort one thing the next developmental leap starts lol! 

[Skadiver13]

Yep it's always changing. . Let us know how it goes.

[Haribo2012]

Well a quick update
6/1 did 5.40 BT and he went off ok but woke an hour into sleep but got back off with quick cuddle, heard him a few times in night but didn't have to get up and started our day when he woke 5.40am
7/1 wake 5.40
Ff 6.15 solids 7.45
Nap 8.40-9.55
Ff 10.15 solids 12
Nap 12.55 - 2.15
Ff 2.30 solids 4.15
Bath 5 ff 5.15
Tried to get to bed 5.30 but fought till 6pm seemed wide awake not hyper
No wakes up until 5am

8/1 heard at 5 but dropped off till 5.45
Ff 6.20 solids 7.50
Nap 8.55 was meant to be 8.45 but sister arrived
Wake 10.30   
Ff 10.45 solids 12.15
Nap 1.30 but kept sitting up trying to play until 1.45
Slept till 2.35 aiming for 6pm BT but OH home about that time so might be late!

What went wrong with 2nd nap too little A time or too much?

[Skadiver13]

So looks like on 1/7 he did a 1hr 15min nap with an A of 3hrs. Then an A of 3hrs with a nap of 1hr 20min?? I would say both are UT naps. But still over 45min which is good. Could have been a Little OT creeping in by bed time due to 2 shorter naps but not massive which is why he was awakeish but not hyper, but all in all a good day especially if he went to sleep at 6 and woke at 5:45.. So he wouldn't tack much sleep on because he had 2 ok naps. For 1/8 he did an A of 3hrs an which 10min which got you a good nap, then he did an A of 3hrs but was UT so he fought which would indicate UT. They trying to play could also be OS.. You said your sister arrived. Sometimes with my LO if he's OS he'll do an UT nap of say 50min-115min. Typically any wake udp between 45-1hr.30min is an UT nap but don't forget to take OS into consideration. Maybe start pushing to say 3hrs 10min/15min A time?

[Haribo2012]

I did wonder if he could handle more A time as hadn't really shown any sleepy signs but then some days he shows them last min, I've been trying to take him to our bedroom at least 15 mins before sleep to try and wind down but he seems to find something in every room he wants to grab/lunge or stare at lol...at least he's interested (bit too much). It's always scary increasing A time as I always worry about the OT monster!!
Tonight he had bath, OH read story then I took him to bedroom for bottle!! He just kept smiling at a picture on the wall so I just let him rather than keep fighting to turn him round! Went into his room and only had to PU again once and he was asleep by 6.30! Bit too long A time I guess but he seemed happy! The night is young though lol 

Got a day at my mums tom so involves car ride first thing OH thinks I'm mad to drive an extra 15 mins to get over an hours nap!!

[Skadiver13]

At this age sleepy signs really aren't great to count on. My LO will yawn and stretch at like 2hrs because he's bored, or he'll get whiny and rub his eyes if he's too hot.  I totally get the OT monster fear, its funny though as I always end up there anyway because I don't increase in time and he does a bunch of short naps and then EW's before the bells go off in my head, so I end up having to increase anyway and get through the OT. Yes little long A before bed but see how the night goes you may be surprised. I had my in laws with us in the car and Liam missed his nap (due to people being 45min late for lunch) I made them drive past our house for an extra 30min to get him a nap because he fell asleep in the car. They were nice enough about it, but I'm sure they thought I was nuts.

Good job!!!

[Haribo2012]

Well I was getting all pleased with myself until 11.30pm came and awake he was like a spring everytime I laid him down back up to sitting and crying! Tried leaving a bit between going in but kept getting full on need me cry! After an hour gave up and brought him in bed with us, he slept till4.45 but noticed he was always on the go in his sleep either scratching his clothes or me and jerking alot!! OH got up and sat in his room with him in rocker until 6 so I could get some sleep!! Guess that's all OT? And now concerned he will want our bed all the time!!

Now today he will prob end up with a late cat nap on my journey home from mums! Dreading tonight!!