9.5 mth old - exhausted, confused mom...help!

[Dirodor]

Hi .... I need help!

My DS was never a really good sleeper - I have posted here in the past, but after our vacation back in October/2012 he got worse. He wakes 4-5 times per night... Things just seem happened one after the other... the vacation, then teething, then holidays, then teething again, and we've never gotten back on track.  I'm so tired, I swear I don't even know where the track is, lol.
He goes to sleep around 8:30ish (EASY below), but things go downhill from midnight on.  On good nights he wakes once every two hours... on bad nights, once every 40 mins to an hour.  I try to only feed every 3 hours, but sometimes he'll cry and cry so hard that I cave and feed eventhough I know he's not really hungry.  To make things worse, I have two girlfriends with babies that did controled crying - and it worked for them.  One did it when the baby was 2 mths old, he's been STTN since then.  The other has a 1.3 yr old that had the same NF problem I face.  She did it about a month ago, and the baby is STTN since the 3rd day (gave up all NFs at once!).  Needless to say, they're pressuring me to try it, but I've read so much about the negative effects that I don't want to resort to it.... at the same time I NEED to sleep.

I'm not sure I'm doing the PU/PD (at his age just PD) right... and I don't know when the WI/WO starts.  Using tonight as an example, at bed time I breastfed, read a story and put him to bed, said good night and left.  He fussed a bit, when he started crying desperately, I went in, PD, said good night and left - that repeated 12 times and I gave up the leaving and would PD, step back from the crib but stay in the room.  After 40 mins and 34 PDs, he slept.  My questions:

1) He woke for the DF at 11 - I gave it cuz I don't know if he still needs it.  Does he still need the DF?
2) Should I be walking out and in or should I stay in the room until he goes to sleep? 
3) How do I know when to interfere and when to leave him be?
4) When he first goes to sleep, the whole process works after a while (40 mins isn't as bad as some other moms that take 1.5 hrs), but he gets agitated when I try to do it at DF or NF time.  He cries/screams desperately and will not stop until he gets the breast (I've been up for 2hrs, no stop) - not even rocking helps.  PD just makes it worse. Is that normal? Is that a sign that he still needs the feed? What do I do when that happens?
5) Since he's been feeding every time (practically) he's woken up, should I cut it all at once, or go one feed at a time?

His EASY:
7:20 - Wake up / BF (his choice, if it were up to me, we'd sleep till 9 )
8:30 or 9, depending on the signs - Feed him some fruit
10:30 to 11 (again, depending on the signs) - nap
12:00 or 12:30 (depending on when he wakes) - lunch
2:30 - 3:30 - nap (wait for signs, sometimes they come early, sometimes later)
4:00 (whenever he wakes) - BF and fruit snack
7ish - dinner
7:30 - bath
8:00 - BF, story and bed.

As you can see, it's all pretty  flexible, depending on his signs and how long he sleeps.  Some times he'll sleep a 1.5 hr stretch, sometimes it'll be just 40 mins.  Ah, twice a week we go to swim class at 9AM - on those days he naps around 10AM (as soon as it finishes, he'll sleep on the way back home).  He's a very happy, energetic baby - it breaks my heart to see him cry...I really wish there was a way to do it with no crying!!

What do I do? What am I doing wrong? How can I get my sweet sweet boy to let his mom STTN?? (at this point I'd settle for sleeping for more than 2 hours at a time).

[jennie_kyle]

I'm not an expert, and I'm in a very similar boat as you and I'm OVER IT!  I too am looking to see what others are doing and can only tell you what I've been working on and maybe it might help you too!

One thing I discovered last week from my neighbours is that somewhere along the line I stopped doing the DF properly!  I believe it was because he was teething months ago and started waking up anywhere after I put him down (7) and 11, could be 8,9,10 or anytime in between so I just fed him when he woke up which isn't technically a DF! I noticed that you are also waiting for him to wake to feed so try stopping that maybe.

So last week I started to return to feeding him while he is sleeping, not waiting for him to initiate the feed.  I am also trying out the method posted under the FAQ section here about how they got their 9.5 month SLTN routine by weaning the NF down.  I started last week and I am getting some positive results but also some bizarre waking which I can't determine is teeth or not. He seems to wake exactly 3 hours after the DF so I go in, pu and he settles right away which is fine but still waking.  He is also still waking again to eat around 1:30 and I am trying to reduce how long I nurse him for which is difficult because he will freak if I take him off too soon, but so far after this feed he sleeps till 7, which is the best I have had since he was born so I have to be happy with that result I guess!

I am at 2 ounces and 4 ounces water for the DF now so getting closer to matching his bedtime and I'm so nervous that this isn't going to work either. I will keep you posted and hopefully someone else will have some more advice to add!

[Dirodor]

Thanks so much for replying and sharing your story!  Tomorrow I will definately do the DF while he's still sleeping, because you're right... I am waiting for him to wake (which is usually 3 hrs after I put him down the first time).  I am trying to wean out the NFs - I decided to do it one at a time.  Well, right now I just spent 1 hour and 37 minutes with a screaming baby.  PD didn't work so at about the 1hr mark I picked him up and spent the last 37 minutes trying to calm him down in my lap (walking and rocking).... he finaly caved and slept.  I don't know if I did well.. but after one hour of screaming and trying to put down, I wasn't sure what to do. Oh boy, he's crying again.  Not sure I can keep this up... I might cave and give him the NF he seems intent on getting... 

[Erin M]

1) He woke for the DF at 11 - I gave it cuz I don't know if he still needs it.  Does he still need the DF?

I probably would (though like the PP said, I would probably give it as a df and not wait for him to wake -- makes it easier to wean that way).  It gives you the security of knowing that he has eaten so when he wakes later in the night you will persist with not feeding him. 

2) Should I be walking out and in or should I stay in the room until he goes to sleep? 

If you think he's headed to sleep I'd probably walk out, but if he's still upset and fussy, I would stay with him.  You'd probably be in there with him most of the time, only headed out when you think he's settling.

3) How do I know when to interfere and when to leave him be?

Do you know what his mantra cry sounds like?  What’s a mantra cry? -- If he wakes and he's just chatting or fussing, I'd let him be and see where it goes.  If he's all out crying, I would go in and help.  Likewise, in his bed you can probably see if he's trying to settle or if he needs you to pick him up -- sometimes you can soothe them just with your voice or a "shhh" or a sleepy phrase.  I have much better luck with my ds sometimes if he just knows I'm there, even if I don't pick him up.

4) When he first goes to sleep, the whole process works after a while (40 mins isn't as bad as some other moms that take 1.5 hrs), but he gets agitated when I try to do it at DF or NF time.  He cries/screams desperately and will not stop until he gets the breast (I've been up for 2hrs, no stop) - not even rocking helps.  PD just makes it worse. Is that normal? Is that a sign that he still needs the feed? What do I do when that happens?

It will get better here.  Are you trying to get him to fall asleep at night independently too?  It sounds like you've made a good start.  Regarding the night feeds -- this is where you have to brace yourself for some challenging nights.  Generally, when people are weaning night feeds, I usually tell them to settle their LOs by any  means necessary -- and if that means that you're rocking him while he's crying, then so be it.  As long as you're right there with them, helping them through it, it's ok.  I generally had better luck discouraging night feeds while holding my LOs upright instead of in a position where they would think they would be nursing (rocking them cradle hold).  It seemed to make it easier on them.  If you have anyone else who can give you some help, that often makes it easier -- LOs aren't as likely to fight as hard for that night feed when the person who gives it to them isn't there.  At any rate, he'll fight you really hard for the first few nights and then from what most people have experienced, it will get better.  If you really think he needs to eat, you can set a time that you won't nurse before and stick to it (though you have to make sure he's asleep first -- even if it's just for 5 minutes -- as otherwise you will have just taught him that if he screams enough he'll get to nurse).  Have you see the info here on PD? How to PU/PD (inc age adaptations)

5) Since he's been feeding every time (practically) he's woken up, should I cut it all at once, or go one feed at a time?

It's up to you, though it's probably less work in the long run if you cut them all out at once. 

[Dirodor]

Thanks so much, Erin!  I'm a lot less confused now!  In the end, I was able to hold off the NF...  I felt so victorious, lol.  This morning he woke up at 6:40 for the day... and only showed signs to nap at 11AM - the longest A stretch yet.  He slept for almost 2 hours.  When we did put him down, he passed out in the crib, didn't even get up once.  I don't know if it was because of the night, but I guess I'll find out tonight when the saga continues (I'm thinking he might be OT, though, because in the afternoon he only slept 20 mins).  I'll keep you posted.

Reading through the forum I came to realize that his paci is a huge prop.... should I tackle that one at the same time? or wait for him to stop the NFs first and then work on that one?  I don't want to pressure him too much, but apparantly getting rid of the prop is essencial for him to be indipendent (which is the ultimate goal).

[Erin M]

At 9.5 months he should be able to learn how to re-plug it himself -- when you go in there at night, you can guide his hand to the paci and help him put it back in -- and then leave a whole lot of them in the crib with him at night -- none of mine ever took the thing, but lots of moms around here will leave them in the corners of the crib so their LOs can find them at night.  You can also just take it away completely, but you might have better luck with the replugging right now (unless you'd rather just be done with it). 

Great work on the night feeds!  Keep it up tonight, it's hard to do I know!

[jennie_kyle]

Wow, so glad to see you made some progress!  Maybe I need to continue with that as well?  My DF routine seems to be doing well too however he still wakes up almost exactly 3 hours after I give it no matter what time I do the DF so to me that suggests that all those months DF when he woke up rather than me instigating the feed, created a feeding time instead. 
So I have been just running in and holding him up right until he relaxes and then I put him down and then he goes right back to sleep....but then he wakes again an hour and a half later for a proper feed which I still do.  Should I not? Should I be doing the pu/pd from now on for all wakings?

Since I have been weaning him on the DF after I get passed the NW and then the feed he seems to sleep the rest of the night, so as I have been bringing the DF closer and closer to his bed time, his sleep has also increased, which is great, but it still involves the NW and a feed.  Should I continue with my program? 

[Dirodor]

Hi!! I took a while to post how things are going because it's been hectic around here, but I'm so happy!!!  Ok, not all is solved, but let me tell you that it's much better!  All the advice has helped soo much!

So to recap, the first night (Mon the 18th) it took him 40 mins to sleep in the crib, I gave him one DF (the wrong way - waited for him to cry to give it), he woke at 3:30 AM and screamed until 5:26AM - but I held firm and didn't feed, then he woke for the day at 6:20 am. 
Tues the 19th - Took him 20 mins to sleep in the crib - 5 PDs and  I stood by the crib and caressed (he doesn't really like patting) his back.  I have the DF properly - while he was still asleep.  He woke at 3:09AM fussing, I waited to see if he'd fall back asleep by himself, but he didn't- he cried - so I plugged him and caressed until he slept. It took 27 minutes.  NO SCREAMING!  !  He woke again at 4:25, but all I did was plug and he fell back asleep and woke at 7AM for the day.
Yesterday night - took him 24 mins to fall asleep - 6 PDs and I caressed a bit, but then sat on a stool close by the crib. He woke at 3AM and took him 12 mins to fall back asleep (had to plug and caress) and then just woke at 6:40 for the day!
Tonight - so far it took him 19 mins to fall asleep - 3 PDs and I caressed and sat on the stool, a little farther from the crib this time.

Woohoo!!   He's still waking at night, but he falls back asleep easily, no more crying or feeding.  The DF without waiting for him to wake was a great tip, I saw the difference.  I'm still expecting a regression, I just can't believe he's progressing so well!  I swear the second night, when we went back to sleep after 30 mins without screaming I stayed up almost half an hour thinking, "any time now he'll wake up to do the screaming part he forgot the first time" haha. But he didn't!  I'm going to buy more pacis to keep around the crib and try to teach him to plug himself, thanks for the advice!

Jennie, I don't feel qualified to give you advice yet.... as you can see, I'm still learning all this! But I cut all the NFs cold turkey - he hated it the first night, but once we got over that one, he's doing just fine without them.  Have you tried not giving your LO the NF? The first night my DS was so frustrated and hungry that I PU'd and rocked him, and he still screamed for 2:30 hours, but after that PU hasn't worked, so I just PD.  From what I read here, it's the age.... I don't know.  Let's see what Erin says! lol

Keep me posted with your progress and I'll keep you posted with mine!  Wishing you a great night!

[Erin M]

The first night my DS was so frustrated and hungry that I PU'd and rocked him, and he still screamed for 2:30 hours, but after that PU hasn't worked, so I just PD.

Just PD is totally fine for his age.  The picking up can be too stimulating for them.

You sound like you're doing great!  

[jennie_kyle]

Ok, so awesome to hear that you are having success. I had a brutal night last night and it must have been stomach pain or teeth or something cause he woke up 5 times! He is still waking every night around 11 and arching and upset and I cannot figure it out at all!  Tonight I am not going to give him any yogurt before bed and see if he is struggling with dairy or not, maybe there are a bunch of things happening and I can't determine which one is upsetting him the most! Cause really there is not a pattern for me at all!  So frustrating!
I think you are right and it might be time to stop the night feeding cold turkey.  Something has to give.  I'm going to start trying tomorrow night I think.
Keep you posted!

[jennie_kyle]

OMG so after I wrote my last post I continued to do some more research and read a thread where the advice was that "not all little ones are successful with DF, in fact some of them struggle with them as it disrupts their sleep".
This was my aha moment and I suddenly started to connect the DF with alot of his issues.  I seem to remember when I started doing them that he struggled sleeping after that but I thought the DF was better than nothing so I continued with it and never thought that it could be the cause of all of my problems!!!
So two nights ago I decided to do what you are doing and committed to the PU/PD, and at 11 he settled pretty quickly and I went back to bed.  At 12:30 he woke again and I thought ok this is the one where he might be hungry and he was very upset with me, but I did the PU/PD until he seemed to be getting more upset so I caved and tried to nurse him.
But he didn't seem as interested in nursing as I would have thought he would be so I took him off immediately and went back to the PU/PD and did it only about 15times and then he finally relaxed.  So I continued by patting his bum and stayed in the room until I was sure that he was out which only took about 15 minutes!
He slept till 3:30 where I then fed him.  I'm not ready to drop that feed yet, think I'm going to keep it a few more weeks while I get a better handle on the beginning half of the night!

And last night SUCCESS!  He slept right through till 3:30!!!!!  Cannot believe this, so we will see what happens tonight!

[Erin M]

jennie_kyle -- that's great!  Try not to feed after you've been doing pu/pd for awhile though since it just reinforces the idea that if he cries a lot you'll feed him. 

[jennie_kyle]

OH! ok thank you! Night two went well again too, so then fine i will try to stop altogether tonight! Thanks!

[Erin M]

Good luck!