Author Topic: Need help with a few issues for 4 month old  (Read 1715 times)

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Offline Sjbc1019

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Need help with a few issues for 4 month old
« on: February 26, 2013, 15:03:04 pm »
Hi

I have used you guys a lot in the last month as we started shush pat to rid of bad sleep associations which worked great.  We do not have to sway, pat, and hold for naps or for 20 minutes before we put down for night.  The issue we are having though is with naps and also night sleep but I will focus on naps for now.  You guys were very helpful- it turned out my LO was undertired so that is why she was fighting the naps so hard and having such short naps.  Instead of 1 hr 15 we moved to 1 hr 45 or 2 hr.  our LO can put herself to sleep and for a week or so the 1 hr45 was working and she hardly fussed going down and fell asleep within a few minutes.  However she continued to take 30 minute naps.  I wrote in again and another moderator suggested I cut awake time to 1 hr10/15.  I think this too early as it was the issue we had before.  So we have been continuing the 1hr45 give or take but she is fighting sleep more and is taking 26-35 minute naps.  I wrote the last 2 days as a reference- can you help?  I was feeling so great and felt like we were in a good groove but I am not sure what has happened in the last couple of weeks.  A few things-

-LO is 4 months 1 week
-we use to do bedtime at around 7 but with her short naps we have been putting her to bed earlier to try to give more sleep but because if we did a fifth naps she wouldn't go down until 7:30-8:00.  So we end up usually keeping her awake 2hr20-30 minutes to put her to bed around 6:30.  D you suggest we do the fifth nap and put her to bed later so she's not overtired?  She wakes up usually around 6:15-6:30 but will sometimes sleep until 7 or so if we shush pat her.
-I am confused about activity time as I have heard 2 different suggestions.  I know she should be able to stay up for 2 hrs but if she continues to take 30 minute naps how much should I decrease her activity?
- could she be undertired when I put her down at 1 hr45?  She usually wakes up happy but sometimes it takes a bit for her to wake up (5-10 minutes) then she is happy.  Very rarely does she wake up grmpy and stay grumpy.
- since her naps are sooooo short we are completely off the easy schedule but I don't know how to fix it given her nap situation.
-she has been waking more at night and really crying.  We try shush pat but she gets so worked up so I have been feeding her.  It's confusing because I know they go through a growth spurt at this age so they might wake for hunger but I know everyone says at 4 months they should drop night feelings.  She eats pretty good at night- not a woke feed but feeds for about 15 minutes and falls asleep.  I am afraid she is using nursing to help her fall back asleep at nig.  She has been waking about every 3 to 3 1/2 hours.
- we have black out shades, white noise, routine.
Sunday
Wake up-7
A-7-8:48
S-8:48-9:22
E-9:35-9:50
A-9:50-1:05
E-1:05-1:10 (fed as feeding was over nap so enough to hold over)
S-1:15-1:42
E-1:50-2:00
A-2:00-3:32
S-3:32-3:57
A-3:57-5:45
E-5:45-6:07
S-6:18 for night

Monday
Wake up- 6:15
E-6:15-6:40
A-6:40-8:05
S-8:05-8:43
A-8:43-9:50
E-9:50-10:10
A-10:10-10:40
S-10:40-11:17
A-11:17-1:05
S-1:05-1:31
E-1:35-2:05
A-2:05-3:15
S-3:15-3:50
A-3:50-4:55
E-4:55-5:00 (enough to hold over until night feed)
A-5-5:50
E-5:50-6:10
S-6:25 for night

Any help you can provide is greatly appreciated.  I am getting so frustrated because I thought we had figured it out when she was going down easy but now it's just exhausting trying to figure out if she is over or under tired.

Thanks



Offline Sjbc1019

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Re: Need help with a few issues for 4 month old
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2013, 15:25:43 pm »
Forgot to mention that she use to do 3 1/2 to 4 hours between feeds but wi her short naps that tend to interfere with feelings so I am often in a situation where her feed comes during naps.  Also if she is going through growth spurt I do not want to deny her food so I have been feeding her more.  Please advise.  ThNks

Offline katie80

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Re: Need help with a few issues for 4 month old
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2013, 05:11:11 am »
I wrote in again and another moderator suggested I cut awake time to 1 hr10/15.  I think this too early as it was the issue we had before.
Did she mean to cut it to that after a short nap, perhaps?  Both my kids were short nappers until 5.5-6mo, it's very normal and often developmental.  I do think the 1:45-2hr A time is appropriate for her, but not likely after a short nap.  Typically, we recommend to pull the A time back a bit (by maybe 20-30min) after a short nap so that LO isn't OT for the next cycle.  At this age, I rarely did an A of less than 1:30, even after a short nap, but it depends on the baby.

Do you attempt to extend the naps with shh/pat when she wakes?  If she is waking happy, then I'd be tempted to try the 2hr A time and see if it doesn't get you a longer nap.  The other thing you could try is wake-to-sleep at about 25min.  You'll go in and rub her cheek or twitch her ear to cause her to stir and start a new sleep cycle.  You then keep a hand on her through the normal 45min transition (I stayed until 55min) and shh/pat if she starts to wake.  The hope is that if you do this for a week or so, she'll start to sleep through the transition on her own.  How do I address habitual wakings? (wake-to-sleep and other methods)

D you suggest we do the fifth nap and put her to bed later so she's not overtired?
I do think that last A to bed is often too long and likely contributing to the NWs with some OT.  Rather than doing a 5th nap though, is there a way you can AP just one nap a day, so she gets at least one restorative nap?  Something like a swing or wrap/carrier (if you're willing to have her on you for 1.5hr or so) or carseat?  That's what I did with my DS until he was 5mo, as I just needed that break (esp with another LO) and it seemed better to get some consolidated sleep rather than so many little, frequent naps.  It never hindered his self-settling skills.

she has been waking more at night and really crying.  We try shush pat but she gets so worked up so I have been feeding her.  It's confusing because I know they go through a growth spurt at this age so they might wake for hunger but I know everyone says at 4 months they should drop night feelings.  She eats pretty good at night- not a woke feed but feeds for about 15 minutes and falls asleep.  I am afraid she is using nursing to help her fall back asleep at nig.  She has been waking about every 3 to 3 1/2 hours.
TBH, if she's waking every 3-3.5hr, I'd just feed her at this point.  There is a pretty good growth spurt around 4mo, and that's not out of the question for waking times.  I've always favored feeding over resettling if there's a question of hunger and while you're working out the daytime routine.  If she wakes before that interval, I'd definitely resettle her as you don't want to create a prop, but for now, I think it's fine to feed.

As for the daytime feeds, you do have to wiggle them around a bit with a short napper.  Try to not get into a snacking routine, but fit them in where possible, keeping the A time in mind the most, so that she's not getting too OT for the next sleep cycle.



Offline Sjbc1019

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Re: Need help with a few issues for 4 month old
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2013, 14:01:53 pm »
Thank you for your response.  Yesterday for her two final naps I put her down at around 1 hr30/35 minutes.  She didn't cry only fussed very briefly but she put herself to bed but it took 15 minutes.  Is that normal or do you think I put her down too early?  Her naps were still short-23 and 34 minutes but she was not crying and fighting.  I assume we want babies to be calm during the nap routine, right?  If they cry a lot does that mean they are either ut or ot?

Also about waking up happy or grumpy.  When I first get her when she wakes she is always happy and smiley.  Sometimes though when I cuddle her after the nap she will be fussy for 5-10 minutes but then be back in a good mood.  How should I read that- happy or grumpy?

Last night she woke 3 times afterthought 3 hours or so then I fed and she fell asleep.  Anyhow, since she only got about 10 hours of broken sleep I put her down at 1 hr35 this morning.  She didn't really cry only fussed a little but went to sleep in 5 minutes- we will see how long she sleeps!

Finally, since she averages about 4 30 minute naps during the day should we really be putting her down for the night earlier than 1 hr30/35?  She seems so tired by the end of the day after an hour.  Last night we put her down at 1 hr 40 and it took her 15 mins to fall asleep (no crying brief fussing) so she went to sleep at 1 hr 55 minutes.  Should we put her down sooner?  It sounds like her over tiredness is effecting her night sleep then-thanks for clarifying.

Thanks- really hoping to get this figured out.  It's so frustrating but I really appreciate your help.




Offline katie80

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Re: Need help with a few issues for 4 month old
« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2013, 19:37:04 pm »
Yesterday for her two final naps I put her down at around 1 hr30/35 minutes.  She didn't cry only fussed very briefly but she put herself to bed but it took 15 minutes.  Is that normal or do you think I put her down too early?  Her naps were still short-23 and 34 minutes but she was not crying and fighting.  I assume we want babies to be calm during the nap routine, right?  If they cry a lot does that mean they are either ut or ot?
I would have actually put her down around 1h15 or 1h20, so that she was sleeping around 1h30-35.  Yes, ideally you'd like her to be calm during wind down routine and often if there is a lot of crying it means UT, OT, or OS, but it also depends on personality/temperament.

How should I read that- happy or grumpy?
Hard to say... probably happy, as usually an OT waking is crying right away, but it can vary.  Some babies just wake fine no matter what.  Is there a chance she is overstimulated at all?  What types of things is she doing during A time?  Is the last 10-15min or so before wind down relatively calm (i.e. away from tv, lots of light and noise)?

Anyhow, since she only got about 10 hours of broken sleep I put her down at 1 hr35 this morning.  She didn't really cry only fussed a little but went to sleep in 5 minutes- we will see how long she sleeps!
I completely understand this reasoning and often went by it myself, but I'd really try to get her to 1:45 as much as possible (walk around the house quietly or singing lullabies or lie next to her on the floor or your bed for the last 5-10min to stretch her).  If you keep putting her down too early, you'll end up back in that UT/OT cycle.

Finally, since she averages about 4 30 minute naps during the day should we really be putting her down for the night earlier than 1 hr30/35?  She seems so tired by the end of the day after an hour.  Last night we put her down at 1 hr 40 and it took her 15 mins to fall asleep (no crying brief fussing) so she went to sleep at 1 hr 55 minutes.  Should we put her down sooner?
Yes, just like above, I'd try to have her asleep by about 1h20-1h30 and see if that helps.  She's likely quite tired.

Thanks- really hoping to get this figured out.  It's so frustrating but I really appreciate your help.
(((Hugs))), it can be really frustrating and remember it's not always what you're doing.  4-6mo is a really tough time for naps, developmentally.  So, do your best and what you can, but give yourself a break and get out a bit too.  She can likely sleep 30min just as well out and about as she can in her crib, so let yourself have a break now and then.



Offline Sjbc1019

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Re: Need help with a few issues for 4 month old
« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2013, 13:52:25 pm »
Hi

So I should put her down for the first nap at 1 hr45?  If that nap is short (30-1hr) I should put her down for following naps at what time? 1hr15-30?  If every nap is 25-40 mins then I should put down earlier as well?  Is naps are restorative (over what amount-1 hr or 1 hr30?) then put her down at 1 hr45 or keep 1 hr15/30?

Yesterday she took a 26 min nap and I wasn't able to extend.  However I did pick her up within a minute and shush patted her in arms and she fell asleep for 1hr 35 mins on top of the first 26 minute nap.  I put her down so she would wake in. Her crib at around 1 hr15.  My question is should the next nap awake time be 1 hr45 since it was a long nap or short since other naps that morning were short?  I ended up putting her down at 1 hr35 (same as others) and it took her 15 mins to fall asleep at 1 hr50 for a 28 min ap.  Then for her night sleep (after 28 min nap, long nap was nap before that) we put her down at 1 hr25 at 7:05.  It took her 40 minutes to fall asleep.  I am thinking we put her down too early especially after the long nap then she got maybe overtired during the 40 minutes.  She was not crying but more fussing with little cries ( we shush pat for a minute or so until she gets calm again.  I am so confused as this is the longest it has ever taken her to get to sleep and she had the most sleep during naps.  Any input on what happened and when is an appropriate time to put her down?

I am nervous about putting her down at 1 hr15 as we were doing that before to combat ot but she screamed and fought sleep.  Once we increased her activity to 1 hr30-45 she was much easier to put down.

So with her 25-40 minute naps do you think she s ot or ut?

Thanks


Offline Sjbc1019

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Re: Need help with a few issues for 4 month old
« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2013, 18:11:53 pm »
Also- if she is going down at the appropriate time how long should it take her to fall asleep?

Offline katie80

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Re: Need help with a few issues for 4 month old
« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2013, 21:33:15 pm »
Sorry, I think I may have made things more complicated than they should be.  This is such a tough time for naps, so don't get too lost in the details or you'll drive yourself crazy (believe me, I've been there... twice! :P).  I'd aim for 1h45-2h A straight away in the morning and after naps of 1hr+.  If she short naps, I'd pull the next A time back to 1h30-40min, that's all.  I never thought back to a nap previous to the one that just happened.  If she's tired enough (even if she's a bit OT), you will likely be able to extend the nap easier.

Also- if she is going down at the appropriate time how long should it take her to fall asleep?
Usually, within 10-15min.  My DS has always settled quite quick and is asleep within 5min when the A time is right, my DD always took about 10-15min.  The tricky thing is, taking longer to settle can be an indication of both OT and UT, so it can be hard to tell.



Offline Sjbc1019

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Re: Need help with a few issues for 4 month old
« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2013, 16:27:48 pm »
Thanks for the response.  The last 2 days I have put her down for her first morning nap at 1 hr45 and the wind down has been calm and she has put herself to bed in about 7-8 minutes.  I have tried to extend the naps but have been unsuccessful.  Both naps have been under 40 minutes.  My question is regarding the 2nd nap.  Yesterday and today she woke very happy and was happy for about 45 minutes or so then turned fussy.  Yesterday I put her down at around 1 hr30 and she took 30 minutes to fall asleep and was crying and fussy.  She seemed so tired but didn't fall asleep until 1 hr50.  She slept for 20 minutes.  Then today she was fussy earlier so I put her down at 1 hr 20 and it took her 20 minutes to fall asleep and she was crying and fussy.  It took her awhile to settle even when she was asleep she was crying out and moving a lot for the first 10 minutes of sleep.  I suspect this nap will be very short too.

Do you think that her body needs that first nap to be longer but she doesn't take it so that is why she gets so fussy after such a short awake time?  Should I be putting her down earlier than 1hr20/30?  This is the hardest nap of the day for me- not sure why.  I guess the other option is to hold her to make sure the first nap is extended?  Any input you have is appreciated- not sure why this nap is so hard.

Also, if a nap is 38 minutes and I put her down at 1 hr35 and the next nap is 30 minutes and I put her down at 1 hr45 does that mean the 1 hr35 is probably the better time or does the small increment of time not really matter?

Offline katie80

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Re: Need help with a few issues for 4 month old
« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2013, 22:37:41 pm »
Do you think that her body needs that first nap to be longer but she doesn't take it so that is why she gets so fussy after such a short awake time?  Should I be putting her down earlier than 1hr20/30?  This is the hardest nap of the day for me- not sure why.  I guess the other option is to hold her to make sure the first nap is extended?
Yes, I think she would be less fussy if the first nap was longer.  Often, if you can get the first nap going well, you can more easily fix the others.  I don't think you should be putting her down earlier than about 1h20/30, though.  That will just continue the cycle.  Are you ever able to extend those second and third naps when you know she's more tired?  Maybe you want to push the first nap to 2hr and see if that makes that one easier to extend.

Also, if a nap is 38 minutes and I put her down at 1 hr35 and the next nap is 30 minutes and I put her down at 1 hr45 does that mean the 1 hr35 is probably the better time or does the small increment of time not really matter?
It's really hard to tell at this age.  Likely not, but for some babies (esp touchy ones), it can.  Do you know her temperament?  The BW "Know Your Baby Quiz"



Offline Sjbc1019

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Re: Need help with a few issues for 4 month old
« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2013, 00:02:21 am »
I was able to extend the 3rd nap the last two days.  I ave been picking her up when she stirs at around 1hr30 and hold her until she gets to deep sleep and then put her down in the crib.  I wasn't able to extend today though.

Twice today it took her 25-35 minutes to fall asleep.  Her last nap I put her down at 1 hr35 and she did not cry or fuss- just hung out in crib then fell asleep after 25 minutes.  All other naps were under 44 minutes.  Then for her night sleep we put her down at 1 hr50 and it took her 35 minutes to fall asleep.  She did mantra cry/fuss the whole time and didn't really cry at all.  Do you have any idea why it's taking so long to get her to fall asleep?  The night maybe she was overtired but she has never taken that long to fall asleep when she has been overtired.  It's really strange and I am not sure how to read it.

Thanks

Offline katie80

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Re: Need help with a few issues for 4 month old
« Reply #11 on: March 03, 2013, 19:40:39 pm »
Do you have any idea why it's taking so long to get her to fall asleep?
Not really. :-\  Taking a long time to fall asleep can be OT, UT, OS, or developmental.  Is there a lot of activity around her before sleep times, i.e. tv on, toys with noise and lights, older siblings, etc?  Is she working on rolling over or anything else developmentally during the day?

Maybe keep track of your EASY the next few days and then post it, so I can have a peek.  It's hard to get a feel for patterns unless we can look at a few days in a row.