Author Topic: EW, NW etc.  (Read 1095 times)

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Offline janiezboys

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EW, NW etc.
« on: March 25, 2013, 15:30:12 pm »
Hi. We have lots of sleep problems that I'm trying to sort out.

Tyler is 6.5 months old. He has never been an independent sleeper. We are weaning from props/accidental parenting. He was walked to sleep in the stroller most of the time and sometimes fed to sleep as well. Many naps start in the car because I have to take older son to school twice a week.

We are trying to get on a routine but I don't know where to start because his wake times are all over the place and no two days are alike.
For example:
Yesterday he woke up at 4:30 and I fed him 6 oz. I finally got him back to sleep at 5:15 and he woke at 6 with a dirty diaper. He would not go back down.
First nap was at 8:45 woke at 9:20, sh/pat back down at 9:30. Woke him up at 11.
Next nap 1:45 woke at 2:20 tried sh/pat, no go, tried PU/PD no go.
Decided on early bedtime of 6:00 and skip cat nap. Went down at 6:10, woke crying right before 7 PM, then crying hard again at 8:00 PM, then again at 12:00 AM (fed 6 oz) then again at 5:20 AM, this time cooing and playing. Would not go back down with sh/pat and was not crying. Fed at 6:30 AM

Nap routine: Lights dim, massage, read books, sleepy time music, sh/pat in crib
Normally his naps are only 30-40 minutes.

Bedtime routine is Bedtime bottle, Lotion, massage, jammies, sleepy time music playing, books, bed with sh/pat. We try for bed between 6:30 and 7 depending on naps and wake time.

Bottle fed, started solids at 6 months. He has about 24-32 oz of formula a day. Until 6 months I pumped and he drank mostly breast milk. He has about 2.5 oz of fruit, 2.5 oz of veggie and 1-2 tbsp of cereal per day.

Typically Tyler wakes around 1-2 (sometimes more) times per night.
When he wakes at night and in middle of naps he is sometimes crying, sometimes happy. He usually takes an hour to go back down at night. Usually will not go back down with naps.

His activity varies. Sometimes a little jumperoo time or we take a walk in the stroller, play on floor with toys, practice rolling and scooting.
For the past few months he has been perfecting rolling, more babbling, might be teething, starting to scoot and is working on solids.

He was very prop dependent until 2 weeks ago. We used to have to use motion (car, bouncing, rocking, walking in stroller until all the way asleep). At night, we would slide him into the bassinet (now crib) asleep. For naps we left him in his car seat stroller because he would not nap in the bassinet/crib. We slowly weaned him from this and now can put him in the crib drowsy, sometimes using motion to get him drowsy. Then we use sh/pat to get him to go to sleep. For two nights that worked really well, where he slept 9-10 hours straight. The only problem was that he was waking super early and not going back down. Then last night, we put him to bed at 6:00, asleep 6:10 and did not sleep well at all. Now that he is in the crib for naps he will only nap for about 30 minutes normally.

He has a lovie animal blankie that we use during the routine although not perfectly yet.

I have read the Baby Whisper solves all your problems and some of the FAQs here. I am pretty lost still and pretty discouraged about sleep. I am not sure I understand PU/PD completely because I've only had it work once. Every other time he just gets more and more upset and never falls back to sleep.

Thanks, Janie

Offline becj86

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Re: EW, NW etc.
« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2013, 11:09:42 am »
Hi, welcome :)

A couple of extra questions:
Has Tyler had enough sleep before starting EASY? Is he overtired?
PUPD is a last resort sleep training method, so I'd probably stick with shush/pat while you're getting into a routine. Did you read about gradual withdrawal? It may suit him better.
How long have you been working with the 2:45 A time? Its a pretty good place to start, I think for his age and that he's probably at least a little overtired. You may find it takes a week or two to start coming together and looking a bit more consistent, maybe longer if you're changing everything in one go.

You're making a lot of changes - how he goes to sleep, when he goes to sleep... those are pretty massive parts of his world at this stage of his life. Your day looks pretty good for just starting out, you resettled a nap, had a few OT wakings early on in the night and an 11hr night. You may find he does a little better with a 3hr A time first thing in the morning - he may sleep a longer nap on his own or may be easier to resettle if a touch OT when you put him down. Not sure how that fits with school run but maybe you get a few clear days to stick to a solid routine over the Easter break?
Not sure if you've seen these links:
Can a baby be too old for sh-pat?
10 Reasons You Cannot Use Pu/Pd
The dirty dozen:  12 reasons PU/PD won't work
How to PU/PD (inc age adaptations)

Offline janiezboys

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Re: EW, NW etc.
« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2013, 13:04:38 pm »
Thanks for your response.

He is probably overtired I would say. He hasn't ever slept well consistently. Even when we used motion sleep, that was hit or miss. Sometimes he would sleep 7 hours at a stretch, then have a long NW. Sometimes he would sleep only 3 hours at a stretch. His naps have never been great since he was a newborn.

Should I continue the 2:45 A time for a few days and then move that to 3? I am also not sure what to do with the 3rd nap. In order to fit that in, it usually needs to happen around 2 to 2:30 A times. Then bedtime is less than 3 hours from that. I am sure we are in the middle of the 3-2 switch. Is that why he is waking at 4-5 and won't go back down or only goes back down for about 30-45 more minutes?

If he would wake up at a decent hour (say 6 or 7) then the 3 hour A would be perfect. ODS goes to school around 8:45. Afternoon might be harder for pickup. In the summer, we can really work on this even more.

Thanks again. Sorry if I don't make much sense. I haven't had much sleep in the last few months.

Janie

Offline becj86

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Re: EW, NW etc.
« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2013, 09:45:48 am »
At this age, babies are usually going through this transition: All about the 3-2 transition- 5/6 months

Yes, you'll probably find the early morning wakings will go once you extend the A times a bit more in that case.

Offline janiezboys

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Re: EW, NW etc.
« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2013, 15:34:44 pm »
Ugh. We had a terrible night. I extended both of his naps yesterday so he was done with the second at 3:00 PM. So I figured there was no time for a catnap before bed. I was trying to put him down early, but we had guests who showed up much later than planned. He went to bed at 6:50, woke at 8:30 p, 10 p, 12 a and 4:30 a. He did not got to sleep again until 6:30 a, woke up for the day at 7:00. I just tried to put him down for his nap at 9:40 AM and he woke up at 10:15. I cannot extend this one. He isn't crying, he's playing and will not shush/pat back down.

I am guessing that he could not handle that nearly 4 hour A time before bed last night. He was already cranky well before I put him down. I figured I shouldn't push the A time today since he had such a bad night.

I am not sure how to extend the nap when he isn't really crying and shush/pat won't work. Just give up and put him down at 2:45 A?

Janie

 :-\

Offline janiezboys

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Re: EW, NW etc.
« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2013, 18:47:18 pm »
becj86,

I couldn't find the information on gradual withdrawal. Is that like the sleep lady shuffle? I think I've seriously read every sleep book printed.

I read the other links you provided. I know we've made a lot of changes lately. We started having so much trouble with Tyler's sleep that we just decided to do everything at once. I am sure I need to be more patient. I'm just so frustrated right now. I can't fall back to sleep after the wakings and even with my husband helping, I don't get much sleep at all.

Thanks again.
Janie

Offline becj86

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Re: EW, NW etc.
« Reply #6 on: March 28, 2013, 10:01:55 am »
I am not sure how to extend the nap when he isn't really crying and shush/pat won't work. Just give up and put him down at 2:45 A?
Pretty much - if he's happy, you can leave him and see if he'll go back to sleep.

Definitely too long between nap and bedtime. Guests can make things tricky.

GW is described in a fairly general way here: Walk In/Walk Out vs. The Gradual Withdrawal Method (HOW TO CHOOSE)

Offline janiezboys

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Re: EW, NW etc.
« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2013, 20:28:56 pm »
Thanks for that link. I was wondering how to ease off the shush/pat. We are still pretty heavily reliant upon it.

Last night he refused the 3rd nap and I had to put him down at 6:00. He fought it a little, so I was worried it would be a bad night. It was actually pretty decent. He slept until about 11:00, then woke up again at 3. Both times he wouldn't go back down without a feeding. Then he slept until 6:15, so he had about 11 hours of ONS. I don't really know that he needs those feedings though. He had about 26 oz that day and some solids. The 11 waking he only took 3 oz.

Today he took a good first nap with 3 hours of A time. However the second nap was not good. He's going to have to have an early bed again because we haven't had good luck with late naps. I tried to put him down at 2 hours 45 minutes of A time and he would not fall asleep until it had been almost 3 hours. Then he woke up after 33 minutes. Not sure if that was an OT or UT nap. His first nap was 2 hours. I have had trouble after 2 hour naps before, like maybe I should cut those short? Or he needs an even longer A time after?

Thanks again.

Offline becj86

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Re: EW, NW etc.
« Reply #8 on: March 29, 2013, 03:11:09 am »
He probably need a full 3hr after a 2hr nap. If you put him down undertired, he can become overtired trying to get to sleep.

26oz is on the low side for milk intake at this age, he may still need a feed at night. TBH, I'd just do it so I could go back to bed quickly, especially since you're now starting to see him settle into a better routine and the NW may well resolve in a week or so on its own.