12 month old twins nap and NW help please!

[Jojogreeneyes]

Hi everyone

I've been posting on the PUPD board for sometime now and have had some brilliant help and support from Katie but one my boys are 1 we have graduated to this board 

I need some help please on naps for both boys and NWs and EW for one.

On the PUPD thread Katie helped me through getting the boys to sleep in their cots ( they were were co sleeping mostly) and most nights Z goes to sleep well at bedtime without me in the room and sleeps through most nights. After sleep training S used to drop off in 10 mins with me out of the room and sleep pretty well but now he is taking 30 mins ish and with me in the room to get to sleep and some nights we have lots of crying. In the night then he will wake a couple of times mostly resettling himself after an hour of mumbling and moaning but he is very restless some nights. S tends to wake at 6am latest Z at 6.45am. We have them in separate rooms at the moment too.

At nap time they still nap in bouncy chairs Z used to drop off great but his brother has started crying at nap time and now he is doing it too very stressful with the two of them yelling at me!  I need to tackle this as I am returning to work soon but as I am on my own in the day it's proving very difficult. Today S has cried on an off through his morning nap too 

Their schedule is as follows:

6.30am wake (varies from 6am for S)
7.00am milk 120 ml
8.00 breakfast +milk 120ml
Playtime in playpen
10.30 snack
11.00 nap 1 hour-1hr 15 max
12.30 lunch
Playtime and get outside if possible
2.45pm milk 180 ml
3.20pm nap 30 mins - 40mins
4.45pm tea
Playtime, jumperoo etc
6.10pm start bedtime routine
6.30pm milk 240ml
7.00-7.15pm bedtime (sleep can be 7.30-7.45pm ish)

Im not sure if the A times are right now they seem tired at nap time until i shut the curtains! I hope you can offer me some advice please

Jo x

[Jojogreeneyes]

I should have added that S is spirited/touchy and Z is textbook !

[Buttonbobs]

Hi Jo. Welcome to the toddler boards

It may be that the NWs are related to your boys being ready to move a little closer to one nap. How are they in mood when they wake from their naps? Is the second nap capped at 30/40 mins or do they wake themselves at that time?

Have a read of this thread if you haven't already:

from 2 to 1 nap - how, when and the bumps

It has some good initial tips as to how to approach the transition. It does sound like your two boys are more the third kind of sleepers as described in the link and so you might want to cap the afternoon nap a little more and perhaps push the morning nap a little later. Your aim is to get one good long nap which is restorative and one small CN just to get them through to BT. Have Z & S ever had a nap longer than 1hr-1hr 20mins?

How would you feel about moving naps into the bedrooms? I only mention this as it sounds like they settle well at night in their rooms and you might find they transition better between sleep cycles in the day if they are in their sleep places iyswim.

Do you do a similar wind down for naps and BT?

Are there any other issues I should be aware of? E.g. teething/discomfort of any other kind. Teething can have quite an impact on sleep around a year, it certainly was for my DD, but every LO is different.

[Jojogreeneyes]

Thank you for your reply your help is really appreciated!

I'm sure you are right ref 2-1 transition I just can't seem to get my head around how to tackle this when their daytime naps have never been in their cots 

When they wake from their naps they used to wake themselves and be happy but now I'm finding they are whiney or even crying (s mostly does this as his naps do not seem restful he is moaning and unsettled during them). Z had just woke now after an hour happy to sit and play.  The pm nap I wake them if one doesn't wake but usually one stirs and that wakes up the other.  Oh and no their naps have never been longer than 1 hour 20 maybe 1 hour 30 once or twice with some rocking they seem to want to get up and do things all the time .

I would definitely like to move their naps to their bedrooms as I agree with you I'm sure they would get a better sleep once they get used to it. I'm nervous of making night sleep worse I think which has made me delay trying this as they were so bad before I dread it going backwards you know?  I also need to recruit a helper as tackling 2 at once is very tricky.  Also I'm concerned if I can't get the one I'm working on the nap then ill have to try him again later but ill have the other one to watch over. Gosh I'm sounding very negative sorry!

Nap wind down is upstairs a couple of stories then curtains shut and I say my sleep phrase. At bedtime it's longer with a massage bedtime bottle and cuddles, especially if DH is home which makes it easier. I think I need to create a relaxing nap routine but need something workable with 2 at once on my own. At the pm nap they have a bottle before it too.

Teething could be an issue I do give meds at bedtime but I can't see any teeth on their way but I thought a few weeks ago their premolars at the top might be coming?  Maybe i should try meds in the day as well?

What sort of time should I aim for starting the am nap would you say ? I'm thinking of getting this one to be the longer nap as its previously been the better of the 2 looking at the link you sent me, what do you think us the best approach?

NW last night for S was quite frequent he settled himself ( I put his dream sheep on a couple of times) Z slept through and has done for the past few weeks.  Thinking of going with S for naps first as he is worst then onto Z IF I can get my mum to help for a few days in a row at least. 

Sorry for such a long babble i hope i answered all the questions I'm not sure if its relevant too but when S is going to sleep for his nap he sort of throws a mini tantrum kicking his legs and arms he seems really
frustrated?

Thanks again

Jo

[Buttonbobs]

No worries about the babbling, I didn't think you were

I am just looking out for a post which is somewhere on here about moving babies to cribs/cots for sleep and a plan to help. It is for younger babies but the info is still relevant, I'll post a link as soon as I can find it.

In the meantime, I think if you feel your plan to work with one boy first will enable you to focus on one child until he is happy in the cot then should try it, particularly as Z is textbook and may adapt more easily. But it may be worth moving both towards a one nap pattern at the same time while leaving S in his chair. I presume this is what you mean. They may both sleep better on a more appropriate pattern anyway.

Your description of S's behaviour before naps and BT does sound a bit UT, another indicator of a need to move to one nap. He may also show more signs this need than Z due to his spirited/touchy type.

If your first nap has always been the more reliable one I agree that it sounds like a good plan to move this a bit later and then work towards a small CN and then a little bit of time before BT. Can you try keepin them up for an extra 15/30 mins before putting them down for the first nap and holding for a few days to see if you get a longer nap?

[katie80]

Hey Jo, just popping on here to offer my hand to hold when you are ready to get them into their cribs.  You don't sound negative, honey, it's a big job to do with two!  (((Hugs)))

[Jojogreeneyes]

Thanks Naomi and Katie it's great to have your support!

That thread sounds very interesting to help plan to move the boys to their cots, it'll be good to see how others have approached this.   I was planning on maybe tackling S's naps first as he is almost unmanageable in his chair when he has his little tantrums. I thought that if I can recruit a helper it's easier for them to watch over Z while he sleeps. I agree that getting them closer or onto one nap at the same time sounds like a good plan.

Ill try pushing the first nap out to 11.15 or 11.20 (if we have a 6.00am start) for a few days a see how it goes and keep you posted. I mentioned my need to tackle naps to my mum to get her on board but I've not had any success yet will keep trying though!

I resorted to taking them out in the pushchair for the pm nap ( tough as where we live is very hilly!). S was exhausted after a rubbish am nap and had a nice sleep Z refused to nap and fell asleep 5 mins before we got back lol!

For the catnap how long should I be looking for and how long after would bedtime be?

Also I think S has a little SA at the moment at bedtimes we have had some crying sessions after he previously fell asleep with me out of the room. I'm now working my way back towards the door of his room which seems to have stopped the crying although he's taking 30 mins to get to sleep most nights.
Thanks ladies time to eat here both are asleep at last

[Buttonbobs]

Hi Jo,

Found the post I think:

Gentle Removal Plan

It's quite long and relates to removal of other props too, but does provide (if you scroll down) a plan for allowing baby to move from co-sleeping to sleeping alone in a cot. The transition should be easier in theory for your two as they are not sleeping with you but the chairs could still be a prop.

I have to go now as I'm on my way out, but I'll come back later today to answer yor other questions and help if I can.

[Jojogreeneyes]

Thanks Naomi ill take a look and see what it says

[Buttonbobs]

I think your plan to move S first sounds good if he is struggling more with naps in the chair than Z. You can move them both to a nap at 11.15/30 first. You can always put Z in the chair as normal and then use the methods described to help S move to the cot.

Your day might look something like this:

WU 6am - 6.30
Nap 1: 11.30 - hopefully 1/1.30
CN: 4.30/5 for 20/30 mins (they may be a little UT for this CN and therefore not too easy to settle them. You may need to tweak these times slightly)
BT: 7/7.30

You may need to move lunch earlier than the nap to prevent the boys getting hungry during the lunchtime nap. For a while we had really early lunches and then a fairly substantial snack after wake up, but you could it the other way round if that suits you better.

Some people find a slightly earlier Cn works better so you'll have to play around a bit but sticking to one time for a few days at a time before you find what works. I was never very good at working out A times for a CN so Katie if you have any better advice please do reply

If they cope well with an A time of 5hrs before a nap and manage a long nap you might find they refuse a CN and then you'd need to try an earlier BT (say 6ish).

How does that all sound? Xx

[Jojogreeneyes]

Thanks for taking the time to reply in detail Naomi much appreciated.

They managed until 11.10 for their nap today both cried S protested quite a lot still but we got a more restful hour at least. Ill try later again tomorrow and good news my mum can help me for a couple of days so I'm planning to start on Tuesday eek am nervous now!

I've a couple of questions on the day if that's ok?:
On the first nap am I looking for a sleep of 1/1.5 hours or a sleep until 1pm or later? If they wake after an hour so I try and resettle or just try again the next day?
For the catnap if they've had a good nap say 1.5 hrs and they refuse a catnap and bedtime is early would I expect EW?
Would the catnap at that time not affect bedtime would you say, I've been waking them at 4.00pm from their current nap?
I was hoping to get rid of the pm catnap if possible as its been such hard work and then i dont confuse them with one nap in a cot and one in their chairs, but i suppose I need to be flexible during this transition phase I'm just thinking of one twin wanting a catnap and the other not

Thanks for the ideas ref lunch and the large snack ill try both I think pending what time I manage to get them through breakfast. I do think hunger disturbs S he is so active at the moment.

For the nap routine / wind down would sitting and reading them a couple of stories then playing their music box I use at bedtime (different tune) be ok if should I be looking to do things differently? Do I use the same sleepy phrase too?  Also if the nap is not successful do I give up after 45 mins then when do I try again?

So sorry to bombard you with questions Katie has seen my long rambles before   

[Buttonbobs]

Ideally a nap of 1.5 hours at least as this is likely to be restorative. Having said that, some LOs just don't nap so well and if you're getting shorter naps but nights are undisturbed I wouldn't worry too much about the length.

If you get a really good nap - say 2 hrs plus, you can go for a one nap day and just go for early BT. If you get a shorter nap you may need to watch tired signs etc for a good CN time.

As you're trying to break the need for the chairs at nap time, I'd avoid using them for CNs if you can manage it. But for now focus on one nap in the cot and perhaps use another APOP method for the CN if you need one (we often drove around for 15 mins or went for a buggy walk if E really needed a CN but wouldn't take one.

Re: the time for CN, it's a hard question to answer really. My DD always did really well with a CN and then a super short A to bed (2 hrs) at this stage of transition. Your boys may not manage so well. But remember, a short CN doesn't restore energy the same way a longer nap would so a 1hr20 nap finishing at gone 4 might be worse than a CN of less than 30 mins finishing at nearer 4.30/5. But you know our children best. If you think this will disturb night sleep it might be best to try for a CN earlier in the day (maybe 3/3.30) and trying for a period of time before getting them up & trying again in a bit if they don't sleep. You will be able to get rid of the second nap soon I'm sure but not all LOs will cope well with dropping it immediately. Z may cope better as he is textbook type and they manage slightly better with OT, but S may find this tricky, so may well be worth you working to keep a cN for a little bit, even if not everyday.

Re: winddown. I would keep this reasonably similar for BT and naps, & definitely keep your sleepy phrase exactly the same for all sleeps and wakings when you're trying to resettle.

Your ideas for winddown sound good to me - it's a little difficult to say though as different babies & children need different things. My DD for example likes a super short winddown - we tell her it's time for bed and then go upstairs saying goodnight to a few objects on our way, then close her curtains and say night to the garden then lay her in her sleeping bag, and say we love her and will see her in a bit/in the morning - sleep well. This works for her but I read some other mums doing half hour winddown each time. I'd stick with what you've been doing as it seems to be working so far

I'm glad your mum has offered to help, that'll be a great support I'm sure. Here to hold your hand as you do this xx

[Jojogreeneyes]

Well I've got them to nap at 11.15 again today S was grumpy as he had been up since 6am and had woke a few times in the night. Z was just relieved to get his eyes shut I think.   I fed them a large snack before so hopefully that will help. S cried but not as bad so he must be pretty tired

Hoping to start proper tomorrow I might ask mum to try getting Z to go in his cot while I work with S it would be great to get them both done at once just don't know if a couple of days will be enough!

I tried taking them a walk in the pushchair on Sunday for the catnap but Z stayed awake all but the last 5 mins so I might have to go for the car.

Should I stay in the room with S as I do at bedtime?  Z goes in his cot then I leave the room normally so would I do that with him?

Thanks so much for your support

[katie80]

Hi ladies, sorry it's taken me awhile to get back here!

I was never very good at working out A times for a CN so Katie if you have any better advice please do reply

Nope, the routine you've written out is the same as what I would've suggested.

As you're trying to break the need for the chairs at nap time, I'd avoid using them for CNs if you can manage it. But for now focus on one nap in the cot and perhaps use another APOP method for the CN if you need one (we often drove around for 15 mins or went for a buggy walk if E really needed a CN but wouldn't take one.

I totally agree.  If you're going for the cot for naps, the CN either needs to be in the cot (which will probably be tough) or somewhere other than the chair, so car/buggy.

Re: winddown. I would keep this reasonably similar for BT and naps, & definitely keep your sleepy phrase exactly the same for all sleeps and wakings when you're trying to resettle.

Yes, agree again.  I pretty much do everything the same for naps and BT (and use the same sleepy phrase for wakings too). 

Should I stay in the room with S as I do at bedtime?  Z goes in his cot then I leave the room normally so would I do that with him?

Yes, I would stay for now with S and put Z down and walk out.  Since they've already been in their cots at BT, I really don't think this will be too tough for you, but naps do tend to be a bit more difficult. 

I'm so glad your mum agreed to help, Jo!  I think if Z is comfortable with her, then it might be worth having her try to put him down.  Do you think she would be willing to do PD or sit with him if he puts up a fuss?  I just wouldn't want you to be stressed trying to get S down and then worrying about Z not settling for your mum.  I do think he will be pretty easy to transition, though.

(((Hugs))) honey, you can do this!

[Jojogreeneyes]

Hi Katie thanks for the support!

I've ordered new car seats today in readiness for afternoon drives my back aches pushing these 2 round in the buggy everyday, mind you I will get fitter! LOL

I think my mum could do put down for me lifting Z is too hard anyway as he is a real heavyweight!  I suppose we will just have to try it and see.

Ref the chairs I do use them when I feed them at the same time so mid afternoon and bedtime is that still going to be ok?

Just a couple more questions please! If the nap in the cot just doesn't happen so say I've tried for 45 mins do I try again 2 hours later? Not sure about this bit as ill need to watch over the other one ad my mum will only stay for the initial nap time?

Also if the nap lasts 45 mins or so but no longer do I just allow a longer catnap to make up?

Good news is S has just gone to sleep in 15 mins and I'm almost by the door at last Yey !

Thanks again you girls are just fab!