Waking 5 to 10 times a night, about to let him cry, 4.5 months

[Clewis86]

OK, so my husband and I started this 4/4 schedule about a month ago and the first night or two it was GREAT. He slept 6 straight hours. Since then he has gone steadily down hill. I am very frustrated and about to give up entirely. Our schedule is approximately like so:

6:30- up for the day, feed
8:30- down for a nap. He goes down really easy, then wakes after 45 minutes, at which point I go in to try to put him back to sleep. Depending on if I get there fast, he will usually go back to sleep for anywhere from 15 minutes to an hour.

*do i keep trying to put him down until the end of the 2 hours? do I feed him right after he wakes or do I wait for the whole 4 hour cycle? Do we just play until the next ”E" time? Do i try to get him back down after 2 hours or wait until 12:30?

At this point, the times change from day to day. I sometimes feed him earlier than the 4 hour mark, sometimes he makes it the full four hours.

EVENING: my son is a very spirited baby, he has difficulty sitting still...at all, but especially during feeds. I often fear that he so not getting enough, but if I force him to eat more when he seems done, he just spits up more. It is impossible to get him to sit through a second feeding right before bed (to "tank up"). And in the last week he has not even made it to 10 pm for the dream feed.
*should I try formula or rice cereal before bed to help fill hi up? (He is exclusively breast fed)

NIGHT:he wakes anywhere from 5-10 times I have been feeding him twice a night lately. (Usually around 1 and 4. The other times I go to his crib, hold his hand, turn him on his side, and some times pat his tush. Sometimes he goes to sleep right away, sometimes it takes up to a half hour.

I am really tired. Sleeping for only an hour or so at a time is really taking a toll on me. Thankfully, I am a teacher, so I have another 1.5 months to get this figured out, but I am seriously considering trying the Ferber method or something like it. I will not survive going back to work If this is what it is going to be like.

[PNWmamaBear]

Hey, just had to say I know how you're feeling. I had the same issues with my DS, thanks to this forum I found out he has silent reflux & MSPI. He's also spirited and from the spirited support thread its helpful to read that a ton of spirited LOs have a tough time staying on schedule.
Most 4.5 month  old babies can't make it 4hrs between feeds. For a while my DS feeds landed right in the middle of his A times and his naps, drove me craxy until I just accepted that he wasn't going to hit that book perfect schedule but that was what he needed.
If I remember correctly sleep gets weird for a bit around 4months. The great thing is that your LO slept well before and probably will again, rough patches happen but they do pass.
Although the eating issues make me wonder about reflux, I know my DS did that, I was feeling so horrible,  thinking I must have an overactive letdown or something that was bothering him. The rule with refluxers is to feed Half as much Twice as often, I've found this has to be stuck too because overfeeding causes so much discomfort. If he's not a refluxer, but you're worried about his intake it can be something to try. Although if he's gaining weight decently then you can rest knowing he is getting enough. Even now my DS is almost 7months, he eats very quickly unless he's half asleep.

2hr naps are great, but 1.5 is pretty normal. The 45minute nap monster is from trouble transitioning through cycles, so you can try W2S.
That rice cereal thing is a myth, as confirmed by our pediatric gastrointerologist.
I'm no expert, my DS still doesn't sleep at all, I'm thinking that's more a medical issue for us. But I haven't had 3 consecutive hours of sleep in months and I'll tell you that you'd be surprised how well you do once your body adjusts. Although I bet you won't have the problems we do and you'll come through this patch just fine. Spirited LOs require a bit extra patience but keeping their trust in you is going to be so important in the future that ferberizing will probably give you more problems that will last longer.

I would try to introduce a lovie (we got the Miyim brand and I think they're perfect) we bought 3 of the same so we always have one. One of my nephews is 5 years old now and his lovie has helped him through lots of tough times

Can you post your whole day in the E A S format? I can't help there, but the wonderful people who can will need to see it.

In the meantime, if you have a minute check out the spirited support thread and the sample EASY schedules, they're super helpful to see that 2hr naps don't happen for a ton of kids and the schedule still works.

[Clewis86]

Thank you for your reassurance, maybe I will check out the spirited page to see some sample routines. Hope I can find something that will work. I will log my times tomorrow and repost.

[skatty]

I am hopeless with routine stuff, especially now my dd is almost 7 but having had a spirited I think it is very likely he is overtired and maybe overstimulated by naptime. My dd had shorter than average A times and I also had to be very careful what we did in A time because she took in every sound, sight, smell  What I did was watch her very carefully and at first tired sign (you know that look in the eyes, first yawn was often too late  ) got her down following the EASY plan but not going by A times. Now he has been waking so much in the night there will be no way he can do regular A times and when naps are short you have to reduce the A time to compensate otherwise the OT accumulates and by bedtime baby is a mess and cannot stay asleep  We also kept the whole of the last A time like a super long wind down, lights low, no TV on etc, it really helped.

Please don't Ferber, it wont solve anything, he is tiny and he hates not sleeping too, his body is flooded with hormones that makes it impossible to stay asleep. I am sending (((hugs))) and vibes because I know just how frustrating and tiring it is to have a spirited baby who doesn't sleep but the thing with spirited kids is they never fit anything textbook, they are complete individuals who keep you guessing forever and we have to work out their own personal formula  It will get better though, get on the spirited thread and maybe ask about reducing A times to get caught up and definitely try and avoid baby getting too stimulated, especially near sleep times, this is hard because everything stimulates spirited babies, they have big personalities to grow into and they cannot help but notice everything!

[babybarr]

Does he have a dummy?  Being up that many times does sound like discomfort to me.

[Clewis86]

Thanks for all the encouragement. I was going to post his routine, but we are on vacation with the inlaws and everything has been a little screwy anyway. We get back home on Monday so I will just posts Tuesday's routine.

I have a question about feeding times in relation to the current short naps. Lately, I have been putting him down for a nap after two hours of A time and he almost always wakes after 45 minutes. I go in and smooth him back to sleep for a little while longer. Should I do this, or just let him stay awake?

I also have been trying to wait the full 4 hours to feed. Should I feed him as soon as he wakes even if it has been less than 4 hours?

This all seems so tedious to me.

And yes, he does use a dummy but he usually spits it out without waking and sometimes falls asleep without it.

[ZacsMumme]

Does he have a dummy?  Being up that many times does sound like discomfort to me.

I agree Hun.
Have you started solids or changed anything recently? Teething?
Any reflux or intolerances?

[skatty]

I was going to post his routine, but we are on vacation with the inlaws and everything has been a little screwy anyway. We get back home on Monday so I will just posts Tuesday's routine.

This is a big thing for a spirited baby who really thrive more than any other type on routine, it will all be easier once you are back home and you can keep everything familiar and calm 

[Clewis86]

No solids or teething. But we have been on vacation and in a different time zone, so we will try a more rigid schedule when we get back, but even before we left he was having difficulty at night.

Been thinking about starting solids or maybe supplementing some formula at night to help him fill up, but he is still a month and a week short of 6 months. Any ideas on this?

[babybarr]

I would personally be reluctant to start solids just to try and fill him up, I definitely think get home and back on "normal" time and reassess. I would say the dummy might be the problem...

[skatty]

From what I have read it often backfires feeding solids in hope of a better night. From my own experience I really do think the struggles come down to having a spirited baby, it is only in hindsight I can see how overwhelmed my dd was by the world and how a quiet , calm and predictable routine was the solution to sleep problems. Visiting/visitors/noises/smells/being held by different people all lead to short naps and NWs  Do you have a sling? Right now while you are away I would recommend carrying baby in a sling, it really helps avoid OS, I think it helps when they are right next to mum, no one can really get in their face and it encourages catching up on sleep which is something he really needs to do before working out his perfect routine. Like Laura said it is best tackling that when you are back home with normal times and you can work out definitely what the problems are like dummy/wind/reflux but right now while you are away I would try and wing it any way you can so he can catch up on sleep 

[Clewis86]

We arrived home Monday night and yesterday I logged his schedule. It is thus:

E. 6:55
A.
S. 8:50-9:45, went in and soothed him back to sleep, 9:50-10:35

E. 11
A.
S. 12:50-1:40, went in and soothed him back to sleep, 1:40-1:45

E. 2:30
A.
S. 4:30-5, went in and soothed him back to sleep (3 different times), 5:15-5:20, 5:20-5:45, 5:45-5:55

A. Bath
E. 6:55
A. Walk
S. 8:05

I fed him again at 11:45, and 3:10. We have been doing p.u.p.d but it has become more difficult to get him back to sleep. This morning it was just too much for me and I had to leave and he just cried for a minute while I collected myself. I came back in and placed my hands on him and he calmed down immediately. Then I backed away and he went to sleep himself, no shushing, patting, or p.u.p.d. required. Makes me wonder.

Am I doing this right? Should we go in and put him back to sleep 3 times or just let him be up?

[skatty]

I think that minute crying without you probably wore him out and that is why he slept afterwards. Maybe you could just try comforting him from beside the cot, it is possible PU/PD is a bit too stimulating. He is so little that it really isn't kind to leave him on his own unless like today you really need a break. I couldn't do PU/PD with my spirited dd, much too stimulating and it just made her angry, instead I would hold her hand or like you place my hands on her and shh or even just shh from beside the cot. It was just something I had to accept: spirited kids often need a bit more help to switch off and sleep first when they are tiny and then often when they are an older toddler because they can't stop their little brains whirling around!

Personally at that third nap after the second time of soothing back to sleep I think I would have got him up and just do an earlier bedtime and know he will probably wake for a feed a bit earlier so maybe give an early dream feed. I stopped my dd's catnap quite early, sorry I can't remember when but it just seemed she had had enough by the end of the day. I think I mentioned before when we did have a catnap we kept the time after like a long winddown, no TV on, lights dim and I would cluster feed, my dd seemed to want to instinctively tank up. Was it just those 2 NWs he had?

[Clewis86]

First of all, Let me share that last night he only had 2 NW!

The night before it was 4, and my DH had to stay with him for an hour.

I have been trying to keep activity very low before BT. We bathe, eat, and then walk outside, read a book, then go to bed. I cannot get him to cluster feed. I have tried in the past and he just gets mad. My guess is that he his frustrated and impatient, and doesn't want to wait for the let down.

Here is yesterday's routine:
E. 7:10
A.
S. 9:10-9:50, 10-11

E. 11:05
A.
S. 1:25-2:10, (he was very angry, so we went outside and swung in a porch swing, but he started to rub his eyes, so we came in and tried again) 2:35-2:45, 2:50-3:30

E. 3:35
A.
S. 6:05-6:50 we actually put him down an hour before, but when we did that he started to coo and entertain himself. He seemed happy so we just let him be. He played in his crib for at least an hour before he stared to get cranky. Then we went in to sooth him, he was very upset.

A. Bath
E. 7:15
A. Swing outside, book
S. 8:20

E. 10:50 pm
E. 3:45 am

Last night was so much better than it has been. I'm concerned, however, about when and how we put him to sleep and the fact that it is impossible for him to take a nap for longer than 45 minutes without having to be soothed back to sleep. Sometimes it takes no time at all to get him back to sleep, I'd say under a minute. Other times it takes 5-10 minutes. Will he ever take long naps?

[skatty]

Sorry I am not good with routine stuff but wanted to say woohoo for only 2 NWs  45 minute naps are extremely common, have you seen this sticky:

How Tracy Helped Josie and her Family Get Past 45-Min. Naps!

It is probably worth reading this sticky now too, not sure if you are in your way to the transition but you probably will be soon and 45 minute naps and trouble getting them down for the catnap can often be signs:

All about the 3-2 transition- 5/6 months

With my dd I found if I was there right at the 45 minute transition and put my hand on her and shhhd she was much more likely to go straight back to sleep. I hope you have a good night tonight