EW,NW,Naps....where to start...help please...

[RylanMom]

Hi Mommies  and Daddies 

First time to post here, and can I just say I'm glad that I stumbled upon this forum.. 

A bit of a background, my LO (spirited baby) is going to be 3 months this Saturday, and on 3.5 hrs to 4 hrs routine since he was 7 weeks old , & this routine isn't EASY, however it feels similar, except more like schedule than a routine, and I thought to myself after reading BW I would start EASY instead, because it is more structural and flexible than my current ones. He also has reflux, & on Losec 7.5 mg twice a day & I have to wait at least for 15 mins to half an hour before I can feed him. He's born in 41 weeks gestational (not sure if too much info) & he's bottle fed..

I started 4 hrs EASAS a couple of days ago, & its seem to be going downhill. On sunday, 28/7 the routine look like below, however it changed again for Monday & Today, except the wake up time...

W: 6.10
E: 6.30
A: 6.45 - 7.40 (inc wind down)
S: 7.40 - 8.50 ( he still looked tired & restless )
A: 9 to 10
S: 10 to 10.50

E: 11
A: 11.15 - 12.15
S: 12.15 - 1.40 ( resettled at 1.10 and slept till 1.40)
A: 1.40 - 2.15
S: 2.15 - 3.10

E: 3.15
A: 3.30 - 4.30
S: 4.30 - 5.45 ( fussy for 1/2 hr, & this is the hardest nap for him to go to) - everyday is a battle to do his late afternoon nap, most of the time I walk him in the pram so he could go to sleep. Is it witching hour?

A: 5.45 to 6.30
E: 6.30 - 6.45
S: 7

DF : 11.30 plus NF at 3.50 (normally around 2-3)

The issue that I'm having is everyday is different with my lo, there is no consistency with him  , is this normal for easy? sometime he can go for longer nap, ie 2.5 hrs and i dont need to adjust the A time, & if he only slept for 45 mins in his late arvo nap, he still looks tired, & I have to put him down by 6.30 to avoid OT, and I'm not sure if it was because his last feed before BT was too early (6pm) or what, but last night he had 3 NWs inc DF (11, 1.15, & 4.50), is it growth spurt? Normally he only has DF, and 1 NF. if so, how long does growth spurt last for 12 weeks or 3 months old?  Should I altered his routine to 3.5 hrs instead? And do you think he slept too much during the day hence all the NW? & how do I stop his NW? should I introduce cluster feed, but i read in BW Tracy mentioned to stop cluster feed at 8 weeks, so I'm not sure... I'm also scared that I'm feeding him too much (900 ML/day)  :-\And how do I make him wake up at 7 instead of 6? Most importantly how do I make his routine consistent? Do you think he is too young still to have a consistent routine? Sometime i feel like I'm expecting too much from my lo  & when his reflux flares up i feel like I'm not cut out to be a Mom

Also if he wakes up at 4 or 5am should I feed him his normal quantity of milk then and again at his WT? And how much do you normally give for cluster feed?

I desperately need help with his routine, i havent been out and about since he was 7 weeks old because I'm scared to tamper with his routine, & when I did try to go out such as Dr appointments, it isn't worth it because he become unsettle for most of the day and sometime night time too     

Welcome any suggestions and advise....PLEASE

Thank you

[Buttonbobs]

Hi there and welcome to BW!

First of all, you are cut out to be a mummy. This is the hardest job in the world and it's even harder when our LOs have things like reflux. Lots of mums here have been through similar things with their little ones and if you want to read about more about that and/or speak to some of those mums why don't you pop onto the reflux board:
Colic, Reflux, & Crying

Will he sleep in a sling or in his pushchair so that you can get out a bit in the daytime? I know it often seems like the most important thing is to stick to the routine, but sometimes it's more important for you to have some time to do things you enjoy - meeting other mums for a coffee or taking a walk or something else you enjoy.

Have you read the BW books? There is a lot of information and certainly a lot of support here, but sometimes it can help to read Tracy's ideas and theories in full. The idea is not to follow rigidly any pattern so yes you will find some variation day to day. The idea is really to follow your baby's cues and stick to the EAS pattern, so yes during a growth spurt you would expect an LO to feed more often, but it isn't necessarily obvious whether it should be 3.5hrly or 4hrly.

I know you have a couple of questions that I haven't answered yet, but do you mind if I ask you a couple?

When your DS goes down for a nap or sleep does he settle independently, or do you help him at all? When he wakes and still looks tired do you get him up or try to settle him at all?

It may be that the routine is 'g quite right for him now and that. Few tweaks will help him get slightly longer naps and then be more refreshed which will help him sleep better at night.

Anyway, welcome and do come back so we can help more. Hugs sweetie xxx

[RylanMom]

Thank you for your response, & encouragements Buttonbobs

It is hard to be a Mom, especially when it is your first and he has reflux, but when I see him smiling, cooing, and giggling away it makes it so worth it...

Yes, I have read BW & I do understand the concept of EAS, however Tracy also mentioned consistency of the routine, ie it more or less the same time everyday with a slight variations during the day, but with my lo it is too much variation, so its hard for me to keep track or to plan my day.

Since Sunday, I started to wind him down 10 mins prior he A time finishes, by swaddled, humming, & pat while I'm sitting down with him in his room, & I think this is start to become a prop for me now, because normally for his night time sleep I can just put him down in his crib, but I can do that anymore...do you think this is a prop? Or will it pass once he can self settle more efficiently? And I need to do the same thing as well during his naps time for resettling, but not so much at night. He also has a constant white noise for all his naps and night time sleep, as well as paci. I know the white noise its becoming a prop now, but I rather have that to block the outside noise...so not sure if I'm doing the right thing with the white noise? 

I will try to resettle him if he awakes before 2 hrs, by pat/shh, or picking him up until he settle, & put him down while he still awake but drowsy...is this ok to do? If he still resisting his nap after 2 hrs, I will then take him out and let him has a bit of A time (45mins), while watching his cues before putting him to sleep again for 45 mins also, & that would normally bring the routine to his E time, however its not aways the case, so sometime I would have to do AEASAS...see what I mean? Its so hard to predict my day 

Update for yesterday afternoon naps..I stayed with him in the room for 2 hrs each for his 2 afternoon naps...but I just sitting down in the dark with my ipad reading this forum just to see how he self settle him self back to sleep & I helped him here and there with gentle patting, & last night, after his last feed before BT (6PM), I gave him cluster feed at 8PM (90ml), & then his DF at 11PM..yet he still awakes at 2.30 this morning for his feed & again at 5AM but I resettled him here in our bed until 6AM his WT... He also slept in his rocker from 9PM onward due to his reflux, he keep waking up arched his back, & throwing his arms like madness because of the acid, & as soon as I put him in his rocker (no vibration or anything)  he went back to sleep peacefully...poor thing I so wish I can have it for him instead of seeing him suffer like that...

I really believe that this routine is for him, but I'm not sure how to tweak his routine, so any help would be appreciate....

Thanks again...
Mel
 

[RylanMom]

Sorry forgot to answer one of your questions, yes, I do go for a walk in the afternoon with a stroller almost daily & sometime I do use a sling too, but I'm worried if I do this most of the time it will become a prop...what do you think?  I'm so worried with everything I do to him it will become a prop & he wont learnt how to self settle...SIGH! I'm such a worrywart....

Thanks again...

[Buttonbobs]

More ((((hugs)) hon. You are doing all of the right things but it does sound like your DS is still uncomfortable with the reflux. It is likely to be impossible for you to get him on a good EASY until this is controlled and sleep training of any kind is usually difficult with any LO who is not comfortable.

Your wind down routine sounds great as does the use of white noise. Although technically something that an LO cannot control, white noise is not really a prop in the way a dummy/pack can become one because you are not going to have to keep getting up and down to help him with it in the night. I would at if it helps, keep going with it. Also, your DS is still small sweetie, so anything you do now can be changed later once the reflux is under control.

My advice at this stage would be to perhaps ask your paed to reconsider the meds for the reflux and to keep APOPing him to help him sleep as much as possible. Many mums with reflux sufferers do this a lot as it's more important Los get some sleep than get on a fantastic routine at this point. I'm going to ask for some experienced reflux mums to add their support here as they may have some additional thoughts at this point.

But it sounds to me like you're already a fabulous BWer - reading your DS really well and knowing what he needs. The routine will come...

[RylanMom]

Hi

Thank you again for your response.

We did up his medication accordance to the pead's instruction from last Wednesday, and he also mentioned that he ony has a mild reflux which will get better once he start his solid, most of the time he's quite happy, he will spits up here and there but not bother by it, he also still drink his milk quite happly, so far its only the night time feed that he bothered by it, & i think its due to the fact that he goes straight to bed after the feed, whereas during the day I keep him upright for 15 or 20 mins also after his feed...

So, most of the time his reflux seem to be under control its only here and there that his reflux flares up again. I will contact the paed again to let him know that the increasing medication doesn't seem to help him at night & what other option do I have....

Yesterday routine went really well, & I'm so proud of him...and below are what the routine look likes for the last 4 days...

31/7                          30/7                                                      29/7
W:6.10                       W: 6.10                                                W: 6.10
E:6.30 (120 ml).          E: 6.30 (100ml).                                   E: 6.40 (90ml)
A: 6.40 - 7.20.             A: 6.45 - 7.35                                      A: 6.50 - 7.40
S: 7.25 - 8.40.             S: 7.30 - 9.30 (resettled after an hour). S: 7.45 - 9.10
A: 8.45 - 9.15.                                                                       A: 9.10 - 9.55
S: 9.15 - 10.20            A: 9.30 - 10.15.                                   S: 10.00 - 10.45
                                  E: 10.15 - 10.30 (120ml)
E: 10.30 (120ml).        A: 10.30 - 10.50.                                 E: 10.50 (150ml)
A: 10.45 - 11.40.         S: 10.50 - 11.50.                                 A: 10.50 - 12.00
S: 11.40 - 14.20.         A: 11.50 - 12.00.                                 S: 12.00 - 14.15
(resettled after an hour) S: 12.00 - 14.10
                                                                                            E: 14.30 (110ml)
E: 14.30 (150ml).         E: 14.10 - 14.25 (150ml)                               A: 14.45 - 15.30
A: 14.45 - 15.25.          A: 14.25 - 15.00.                                S: 15.30 - 16.30 ( tried to resettled & put
S: 15.30 - 17.10           S: 15.00 - 17.00.                               him to bed again, but he resisted)
(also resettled after an hour )

A: 17.10 - 18.30.            A: 17.00 - 18.00.                               A: 17.00 - 18.15
E: 18.30 - 18.40 (150ml). E: 18.00 (150ml).                             E: 18.15 (180ml)
S: 19.00.                       S: 18.15 CF: 20.00(90ml)                 S: 18.30 DF: 22.30 NF: 1.15 (150ml) & 4.50
                                     DF: 23.00 (150ml).                               (90ml)
CF: 20.30 (90ml) - should i stop this now? I never had to do this before, but lately he wakes up morethan usual...any thoughts?
DF: 23.00 (120ml)
NF: 3AM (120ml)

Do you think he slept too much during the day, hence te NWs? Or UT or OT? Not sure which part should I tweak...

Also, do you think his A time is too short for his age? He used to be able stay awake for 1.5 hrs, but lately after 1 hr & 20 mins he started to yawn & rub his eyes....

Also do you think he is too young for a routine & for sleeping through the night?

Thanks...
Mel

[RylanMom]

Sorry just an update...I forgot to mention that he has been waking up around 4:50AM for the last 4 days, & been trying to resettling him back to sleep, and he ended up in our bed from 5.30 onwards and asleep until 6.10, his normal WT, & I'm not sure why he keep waking up that early, is it UT? Do I need to increase his First A time? 

[TB9]

Hi there!  I'm a mum to 2 spirited refluxers so hopefully I can help a bit

Have you tried elevating the crib so that he is more comfortable sleeping in it?  I found it didn't help much with DD1 but it really helped DD2 a lot to have one end of the crib elevated...until we elevated it, she was basically sleeping in the car seat   If it helps put your mind at ease, DD2 also arches her back and flails her arms, but its a sign that she's tired and trying to put herself to sleep.  Her reflux has been completely under control since we switched to lactose free formula, and she still does it.  I think spiriteds actually want to put themselves to sleep, so it really helped when I was able to do shh/pat to help teach her to do it herself (once I was sure reflux wasn't an issue anymore of course).

Have you seen this Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!   It should give you an idea as to what his A times should be at his age.  Both of my spiriteds were on the higher end for A times in order to get decent naps.  So yesterday his morning A was 1hr15min, and it should probably be closer to 1hr30min for him to give you a good nap.  So I would start by increasing his A time slowly until you get to a more age appropriate one.  For naps I personally don't try to get them back to sleep if they've got over an hour of sleep in.  I chalk it up to too short of an A time and make the rest of the day work.  I've also found with my spirited girls that if they've had a shorter nap because of too short A, then I can't shorten the next A or they end up having another short nap.

I wouldn't worry at this point about having every day the same.  Once you get the A times right it may fall into place, but it may not happen for awhile yet.  DD1 was 5 or 6 months old before every day was somewhat consistent, and with DD2 it still hasn't happened yet!

I hope that helped a bit!

[ZacsMumme]

Hugs Hun, tink and Naomi have given you fab advice already. I was just going to ask if he has had his 3 mth GS? - this can cause havoc for LOs, and upset reflux bubs.

As tink said, elevating the cot helps, as does keeping them upright after feeding for 15-20 mins. A dummy is really helpful too if your worried he is struggling with sleep due to needing to suck, or from a little milk coming back up.

Keep an eye out for these symptoms - they are a sign reflux is causing pain
Reflux checklist for parents and Drs

[RylanMom]

Hi ZacsMumme & Tinkerbell99

I'm so glad that I stumbled upon this forum...thank you so much for the supports ladies....

Yes his mattress is elevated by using a cot wedge, but for the last 4 nights he sleep in his rocker, & I'm not sure why, since during the day he's ok to sleep in his cot...He also uses paci for sleeping, & he started to suck his thumb when he's awake so I hope he will suck his thumb too when he's asleep...so i dont have to keep going back to put his dummy back in...

His reflux was under control until we increases his losec dosage last week it started to go downhill, & I also change his formula today to Novalac reflux, & hopefully it will work & ease his pain... Do you think its ok to alternate formula if they are the same brand? I want to alternate between novalac reflux and novalac colic for him...He's passes wind all the time, so I'm not sure if the previous formula make him gassy or his reflux or he just good at passing wind... Did you find your your bubs were gassy and passing wind all the time too due to reflux?

Not sure if he has had hisnGS or not, all i know is he was really fussy last week & wake up more during the night...i would suspect he had his GS, but then the 4 months GS approaching soon too... never ending.... I hate reflux....

He used to be able to stay awake for 1.50 last week, and since I started EASY last sunday all of a sudden he scaling back...starts to show sign of tiredness much earlier. If I didnt resettle him after the hour that he just had, he wont look refresh after his nap, but this afternoon after 40 mins he was ok....

If i didn't extend his sleep how would the routine work, it will going into his E time, & he will be overtired? I will try to amuse him for 1.5 hrs during his awake time tomorrow...do you think he sleep too much during the day? Should I wake him up after the 1.5 hrs? He would normally has around 5-6 hrs of nap time during the day and 11 hrs at night (waking up twice during the night though....too much?

I think I'm expecting too much from my little man....it's so hard not to when you have started this since he was 7 weeks old & showing no consistency in the last 6 weeks....do you think he is too young for a routine? So many times I said to my self forget about the routine...just let him be....but then again all these hard work is for nothing...

Thanks again ladies....

[TB9]

Lots of hugs.  I know its so hard, and I was always second guessing myself with dd1.  I never wake my girls.  They just dont do well when I wake them.  I tend to follow more of a "keep an eye on the clock for A times, but feed when hungry and put to bed when tired" approach.  I guess thats a long winded way of saying I follow their cues more   Have you figured out any of his sleepy cues?  Both my girls show tired signs when hungry,so it is possible that he is hungry when hes looking tired.  I know on your other thread we have already talked about increasing his feeds, so once you do that the rest may sort itself out

What kind of formula is novalac reflux?  Is it thickened or something?  Do you know the difference between the reflux and colic types?

[ZacsMumme]

Tink I posted a link to the formulas on the other post

[TB9]

Thanks