45 mins naps - no improvements whatever I do!

[gb18]

I have posted a couple of times on the forum for advise on extending naps but nothing seems to be working!!

I wondered if I could have some advice on whether my 13 week old LO may be UT or OT or if it is just developmental.
He has short napped since 7 weeks old.
My EAS is as follows

E - 7.30am ( this is still variable by half hour in each direction as wake up time not consistent)
A
S - 9am - 9.45am
A
E - 10.15am
A
S - 11.45 - 12.30
A
E - 1.00
A
S - 2.15 - 3pm
A
E 4pm
A
S -5.30 - 6ish

6.30 ish bath time
 7.00 Feed
7.20 Bed

My Lo has been good at bedtime and can settle himself. This has deteriorated over the last week with tears and resistance to feeding. I am putting this down to tiredness.

I have tried increasing A times gradually and he does seem to tolerate this although if I am honest I do think that at times he could go back to sleep earlier at times for the first nap. I have tried extending naps but as soon as I tough my son he is more awake so patting is a no no. Shh alone does not seem to work. He has moved to a cot so can't rock him to aid extending naps.

He is always happy when I get him from a short nap but I am noticing that by the afternoon now he has less energy. I do try to reduce A times to help with this but I am worried about having to have so many naps in the day. Also if we are out of the house then naps are extremely hard to get. He resists AP and the other day was awake 3 hours before napping in his pram - still only got 45 mins!!!

Please help as feel like I am at the end of my tether!

Gave up attempting to extend the naps this week. My LO will lay in cot amusing himself for about 10 mins after he wakes until he cries for attention. I should mention that night times he can settle himself - wakes normally once, timing varies. Accepts a dream feed via a bottle ( I am breast feeding all other feeds)

Thanks in anticipation.

[Layla]

Big (((hugs)))

Short naps can be so frustrating!!! If your LO knows how to put himself to sleep and doesn't require your assistance/no props and you've tried extending A times and it still doesn't help, it could just be developmental. Some babies are just short nappers! Mine was also a short napper, with her morning nap only naturally extending sometime around 3-3.5months. The rest of the naps were still short and yes, she was miss cranky pants, especially towards the end of the day, but I too tried just about everything and sometimes I was able to extend and other times not . I would say if he's up and happy, he might need more A time but your A times are already quiet long (2hrs)... I am guessing you increased them to try and get longer naps? I used to leave mine in the cot as well up to an hour from when the nap started and if she wouldn't go back to sleep, I'd just give her some more A time before E was due. If she started crying and it was a mantra cry, I would leave her. If it was "I need you!" cry, I would go in and try to shh/pat her back to sleep. Sometimes it would work and other times it wouldn't.

With regards to getting out of the house, will he sleep in a sling/baby carrier or if you push him in a pram? Could you plan the outing at his nap time, so that the drive there will put him to sleep and then you could let him have the CN in the car?

How does he fall asleep? Does he need a paci/soother/dummy?

[gb18]

Thanks so much for your reply. Sorry I have taken a while to respond!!

He does not use a paci or a swaddle unless I am absolutely desperate for him to sleep. This is normally if I am out of the house as he can be really hard to settle then. He will sleep in his pram although the consistency of this can be variable. This is normally still only 45 mins. He sleeps well in the car and I try to coincide this with a nap.

I have tried to increase A times to try and improve naps but this does not seem to work!! The most he has is 2 hours but it can vary from 1 hour and a half to 2 hours. He does struggle to make it to 2 hours so normally it is less.

I am EBF - should I be aiming for 3.5 hours EASY do you think? It is really hard to fit feeds in around nap times correctly as it seems that when he needs a feed he also needs a nap and therefore I worry that he is not feeding well enough  due to tiredness.

He does really well on a night time so am pleased with that. I actually think he could do even better if he slept better in the day/ ate better eg if less tired!! Bless him.

Shall I continue with current EASY or adapt a bit? For example  today he woke at 7.30, refused food ( think he was full after 4.15 NF) so fed at 8. asleep by 9 - 9.40.Fed at 10.45 as started to look tired S at 11.30 ( as took a while getting to sleep)- 12.15. Therefore he will be due a feed near 2 but I know he will be so tired by then!! Aargh!!

Any advice much appreciated

[gb18]

Oh, also with regards to props I play a lullaby pre sleep to ensure my LO knows it is time for bed at night and also time for a nap. Have done this for a week and he responds really well. IS this a prop? Sleep issues started way before the use of this but don't want to make things worse!!

[weaver]

Just to add to Layla's wise words...

Average Activity time for a baby of 13 weeks is about 1 hour 20-30 minutes.  So I really wouldn't be trying to push him much longer than that, as you say he struggles to do much more than that. 

Short naps can also be caused by overstimulation - that could be something as simple as a mobile hanging over him etc.

Playing a lullaby is more of a sleep cue than a prop, I wouldn't worry about that.   I'm posting in a link for the 4-S sleep ritual (which you may have seen before but just in case!) and that will hopefully reassure you on that point. 

As for sh-pat, that can easily be adapted to your baby: if he doesn't like patting, maybe he'd like rubbing (his back, his arm, wherever), shush can be adapted to humming or another soothing noise you like.   

Does he sleep well in a swaddle when he uses one?  If so, I'd be tempted to introduce it for his naps and see how he does.  Mine both loved being swaddled ... until 7 months or so! So there is no rush to get rid of it, unless you don't want to use it, which is your decision of course. 

What does a good wind down consist of (Includes 4S ritual)

[gb18]

Hi. Thanks for your reply as well weaver.

Today I have tried to ensure DS is not as stimulated. Fed him on waking at 7.15 - ate poorly (which he normally does, think this is due to NF at 4.15, even though I try to give minimal NF to settle only), therefore offered breast again at 7.45 and ate more. He only ever feeds for 10 mins max on a good feed so feeding rarely takes much A time.
Let him have a kick about on play mat, play with a toy and tummy time for around 20 mins then I sat him in his swing chair (not swinging) for 20 mins, turned away from TV and no toys dangling in front for 15 mins. When he yawned I took him upstairs, nappy change and in sleeping bag with lullaby. Patted for approx. 1.5 mins and asleep.

He slept for 35 mins only!!!! Aargh!! Thought I would have had success!!!

Weaver - he likes patting but when he wakes it seems that as soon as I tough him he gets more stimulated and therefore harder to settle.

Do you think from my morning routine he sounds over stimulated?

With regards to the swaddle I have not used it for a while as he used to kick it off. I used a swaddle shell (with a zip) but he is a very big baby who grew out of this. As he slept well at night I have not used it again. Even when I used it his naps were not any longer. I could try swaddling with a blanket again but he uses his thumb to settle himself (uses both as not got a preference yet) so worried it would hinder him. What do you think?

[gb18]

Also - as he sleeps well on a night time (one wake for a NF in a 12 hour period - settles within 15 mins and a max 10 min feed) how much sleep do you think I actually should expect during the day. Would 4 45 min naps be enough? It would put him to 15 hours nearly.

Just would like to have the naps a bit more structured!!

[Layla]

I probably wouldn't suggest going back to the swaddle - we used a gro bag and my dd also used her thumb to self soothe. Night sleep usually develops first, which is why he's probably sleeping better for you at night than daytime.

How have the last couple of days been?

[gb18]

Hi Layla

Sorry for really late reply to you!!

Over the last couple of days my husband tried a couple of different things. LO slept in swing chair for first nap and hubby put swing on at 45 mins. LO slept for 1 hour until the swing stopped. That same day he followed that with a 45 min nap and then he slept for 2 hours when at 45 my husband put a dummy in LO's mouth. He kept it in until in deep sleep and then slept. I managed to get a 15 min cat nap and in bed for just after 7. Settled self well. HOWEVER - on this night Lo was up 2 times and then had EW as well.

Yesterday was a nightmare!! 45 min nap then missed cues for 2nd nap so overtired and slept 35 mins only. Out in the car seat on pushchair and only had 30 mins for 3rd nap then a nightmare to settle for 4th nap - eventually had 45 mins. Early BT due to poor naps but still settled at normal time of 7 by the time he was asleep. But did not wake till 5. no crying but unable to settle so gave him dummy at 5.30 - settled fr 45 mins. Fed at 6.15 - settle self after about half hour and slept till 7.40 ish. I fed a top up on waking and then put down at about 9.05 ( little bit of a struggle - making me think he was maybe awake earlier than I thought but just happy in his cot) - slept for 45 mins. Happy on play mat as we speak!!

It is not that I mind the 45 min naps it is just that I find it so hard to push the timing of his feed as it ends up that he needs feeding when asleep. Also when he is tired he does not feed as well.

I honestly don't think that my LO needs 2 hours at each nap time as he sleeps well on a night. What do you think? I would just like to have one longer nap at least as I do think he builds up to OT in the day and also I have no idea how I am ever going to drop a nap/ extend feeding times. That is what I would love advice on as well if possible.

Also - do you think extending naps using the swing or dummy is a bad idea? He can find his thumb but never to extend naps and is inconsistent using it. Don't want to add in bad habits when he is actually really quitre good at self soothing.

Help!!

Thanks

xx

[gb18]

Just updating you on today again as has been terrible!! Feel like I am at my wits end.

as I said in prev message - up at 7.40, sleep for 45 mins at first sleep. A of 1.20 attempted sleep but resisted and ended up with sleep of 30 mins. (prob overtired)
Attempted further sleep after 1 hour A - HUGE resistance - crying for around 40 mins - tried everything including dumy etc - thought he had fell asleep but then woke straight away. Took him out of room, let him have 20 min kick on play mat and resettled - took around 15 mins of shh/pat and tears plus normal wind down. now awake after 30 mins again!!!

Please help. I feel like I do not know what to do for the best. I know that he is going to be so overtired now and feel so sorry for him. I have tried extending all naps with dummy today but not worked. He just seems to be wide awake as soon as he opens his eyes. Do you think this is something that I am doing wrong? Feel like I do not know what to do when he gets upset. Never know if maybe he is hungry as he tends to eat less as the day goes on, prob due to tired. Feel he would be better with a bigger gap between feeds as he eats better then, but then when a feed is due he should be napping (if I shorten A due to short naps).

Feel very disheartened and do not know how on earth I amever going to able to progress to longer and less naps in the day. Sorry, know I sound dramatic, just having a bad day!!!

[weaver]

Feel very disheartened and do not know how on earth I amever going to able to progress to longer and less naps in the day. Sorry, know I sound dramatic, just having a bad day!!!

Oh dear, you sound super stressed.  Dropping off some hugs to start with.

If your main aim right now is just to get him to sleep, and avoid OT, then I will suggest something I used to do: combine two types of nap.  So, say he goes into his cot and does 30/40 minutes, when he wakes up, pop him in buggy or sling and tack on another nap, if he will go back to sleep.  That way you can up the amount of sleep he's getting.  I used to sit with LO (by the cot!) and just put hands on for any stirring, no patting, just gentle pressure, and maybe a very quiet shush for one nap. And then have a bit of a break by doing the 'combined' method.

Right now, you sound pretty wound up about it, so I would just try to ease back and relax a bit, which is easy to say, but hard to do, I know.  There is no point in you being miserable and not enjoying your baby.  This time will be gone so soon!  Hopefully this suggestion will help for now, and we can keep thinking about his routine more broadly.

Meanwhile, can you recap a bit?  What are his feeding times like?  I am noticing that, in your first post, he appeared to go almost four hours between feeds (4.15 to 8 am).  Is that usual for him?  Perhaps a look at the EASY board might help you find some inspiration as there seems to be something going on with feeds and naps, right?  This link might help a little:
When EASY seems hard

I'm also wondering if your baba might be spirited, in which case you need to adapt the sh-pat and so on.  Have you seen the quiz?
The BW "Know Your Baby Quiz"

Hope some of that helps!

[gb18]

Hi my EASY is roughly as follows

E 7.30
A
S 9.15 - 9.45
E 10.45
A
S 11.30 - 12.15
E - This is where it all gets stuck as due a feed but needs to sleep so normal try to feed first at around 1.45 and follow with sleep
for 45 mins
A
S aim for at nap around 4.15 is
E 5.ish
A
E Feed before sleep
S 7.00
DF 10/10.30 - has started waking for this and never used to. This is a bottle feed - all others feeds are breast feeds
NF anywhere from 3 - 5 am - try to give a minimal amount as poor eater in the morning if not. Normally settles although was awake an hour this morning and also woke at 1am requiring shh/pat as well.


I am getting really stressed out about it as sleep just seems to be getting no better during the day. Have upped A times in attempt to increase naps but with no effect. Normally can get him to sleep with minimal fuss although if the naps are half hour then the whole day is a write off of poor naps and unsettled. If has 40/45 mins normally ok. Always wakes happy but I just feel like from reading all the stuff on here he should get more. This is what is making me worried. Also do not know how I will ever reduce from 4 naps a day.

I have looked at the baby quiz but feel like my LO is more textbook. He is never really grumpy unless very tired, interacts well and smiles at everyone

[weaver]

Taking a step back and re-reading some of your posts...

up at 7.40, sleep for 45 mins at first sleep. A of 1.20 attempted sleep but resisted and ended up with sleep of 30 mins. (prob overtired)
Attempted further sleep after 1 hour A - HUGE resistance - crying for around 40 mins - tried everything including dumy etc - thought he had fell asleep but then woke straight away. Took him out of room, let him have 20 mi

This all sounds like UNDER tired to me, rather than overtired. Other tip-offs: the fact that he always wakes happy, he's had one sleep cycle (40 minutes ish) and is refreshed by that.  That means he hasn't had enough A time, usually.  And the nap resistance: fighting a nap like that usually means UT. 

He's now 15/16 weeks, average A time at 4 months is 1 hr45-2hrs. So there's a range there and it's an average.  You need to find out what works for your baby.  So let's try upping his A times a bit more.  Increase by 15 minutes and hold it there for a few days to let him get used to the new time.

And yay for you with a textbook baby!

What do you think?

[Layla]

Also, is your LO using a prop to get to sleep? He could be waking and unable to transition due to the paci being a prop and he needs it to resettle? Is he in a cot or bassinet? I found that by 3 months dd3 needed to be moved to a cot. Honestly though, if you have tried everything and bumping A's doesn't work either, don't be disheartened because some LOs are just natural short nappers. Having just come out of that phase with dd3, I can assure you it does get better. We only went down to 2 long naps when we dropped the catnap and before that we too struggled with short naps. Its not ideal because they do get quiet overtired but you can't force a baby to sleep, iykwim. Sometimes you have to let go of the control and just try and go with the flow. Otherwise you won't enjoy your little bundle of joy - well that's how I was with dd1 and spent most of my time obsessing with trying to get her to nap longer or being on a perfect routine.

I agree with weaver though - by 16months you probably need to aim at moving towards 4hr EASY

[gb18]

Hi all - I was initially attempting an A time of 1.20 to have a reduced A following short nap but to be honest this never seems to happen. I am now aiming for 2 hours A - managed about 1.50 - 2 hours A the last few days with no increase in naps. He resisted sleep a lot yesterday in his cot.

Managed to get a 1hr 40 nap today by letting him sleep in the swing chair and swinging it at the 45 min mark. He was awake for around half hour but then went back to sleep.

Do not normally let him have a dummy so has no real props, however when I am desperate to get a nap eg at the end of the day he does occasionally use a dummy to ensure he sleeps.

To be honest I think I have decided that nothing is likely to work. He is happy for the most part (although more cranky since increased A time) and I feel like this is ruling my life!! I keep trying to do the best by him and then blame myself when nothing is working. There are many mums out there who let their child have dummies, sleep in swings etc etc and their child sleeps through the night and has good naps so I think that maybe I just have to admit my child is a short napper.

I am definitely going to stick with increased A times.

Just wondering Layla - did your little girl just start to increase naps when you dropped the cat nap? I only ask because since we have increased A's but there is not increase in nap length, how do you still drop a nap without having a huge A at the end of the day (even with an EBT?)

 Also - there has been a big increase in nap resistance, bed time resistance and decreased ability to self sooth. Plus increased night walking - do you think that this could be age related? I know that it could be lack of sleep in the day etc but this has always been the case and he was managing just 1 NW and did sleep 3 times all the way through before.

Thanks ofr all your help