4 mos NWs and 45 min naps

[Itsjustbecca]

First off a HUGE thank you! I had posted a couple of weeks ago about how I could not get my DD to sleep without huge crying fits and was getting very discouraged. As suggested, I extended her A time and she now goes down for her naps and bed time with almost NO fuss at all. I can't believe it and am so relieved.

However, I am still dealing with 45 min naps (I had them before, but the crying was much more of a problem for me). Also the past 1.5 weeks I have been dealing with frequent NWs, about every 2hours. I've never needed to deal with NWs before (except waking up once or twice to eat). Sometimes I can comfort her in her crib but often for the NWs and the 45 min naps she will not fall back asleep unless I hold her. If I do pick her up and hold her she will usually fall asleep very easily, but obviously this s not a good system.

I'm thinking maybe its time to try to transition to a 3.5 or 4hour easy? Does that sound right? She is EBF and I have been putting it off because her doc was a little concerned she might not be getting enough to eat, but I think we are in the clear now.

The FAQ also mentioned that NWs can be because of OT at bedtime, because she goes down so well hesitate to change anything, but she has started getting very fussy in the evening so maybe she needs a catnap before bed? But I worry about her just falling asleep for the night early. Here is an approximate easy:

Wake up & E 8am
A 8;15
S 9:30 or 9:40
E 11
A 11:15
S 12:30 or 12:40
E 2:15
A 2:30
S 3:45 or 3:55
E 5:15
A 5:30
E 7:30
Bed time 7:50-8:00

She used to wake to eat at 2nand 5 am, but now she's all over the place,

I would love any advice or tips.

[jessmum46]

Hi again becca . I'm so glad you saw such improvement with extending her A time - well done!

I think you're now in one of the awkward nap transitions, where 4 naps is too many but 3 isn't really enough yet.  The way to get through is to keep gently pushing up those A times - the fact she is still waking at the 45 min mark may well be developmental but could also be a sign of needing just a touch more A time to sleep soundly.  At four months you'd expect to be in the range of 1h45-2h.  You can work on all A times together or just one at a time if that is easier. 

Remind me does she go to sleep independently yet?

Are you waking her from naps at the moment to keep to your E times?  If you are I would suggest you don't, unless the nap reaches 2h as that is one easy way to stretch the day out a bit so you don't end up with such a large chunk of A time at the end of the day.  When you do end up with a long stretch from last nap until bedtime, you can either offer a short catnap to get through, or just go for an early bedtime.  Often in nap transitions the day gets a bit shorter once you drop a nap until LO can cope with the longer A times consistently, and LO will often sleep a touch longer at night to compensate. 

Hope that helps, let us know if you have any questions

[brummum]

Also the past 1.5 weeks I have been dealing with frequent NWs, about every 2hours. I've never needed to deal with NWs before (except waking up once or twice to eat).

There is a sleep regression at 4 months that I believe is the result of prop dependencies (they start to become an issue as the nature of their sleep matures) and the need to move towards a 3.5/4hr EASY and associated longer awake times so I think you're spot on with considering that. Have you checked out the link below?

Time to Transition - 3hr, 3.5hr or 4hr EASY

Sometimes I can comfort her in her crib but often for the NWs and the 45 min naps she will not fall back asleep unless I hold her. If I do pick her up and hold her she will usually fall asleep very easily, but obviously this s not a good system.

How does she go down for naps and bedtime? Is she self settling or are you holding/rocking/feeding her to sleep? Does she use a dummy? Are her night wakings random or is there a pattern to them (e.g. evening, early hours of the morning)? Is she teething at all? Unwell? Have you tried meds at all?

She is EBF and I have been putting it off because her doc was a little concerned she might not be getting enough to eat, but I think we are in the clear now.

Alot of people actually find that increasing the time between feeds (when appropriate of course) encourage little one to take full feeds where as with shorter intervals that aren't age appropriate they can get into a cycle of 'snacking' and not taking full feeds.

I'm a bit confused about the EASY you've posted hon! It may be my sleep deprived brain but I'm not seeing 45 min naps. I'm reading it as 1:20-1:30 nap at 9:30/9:40, then 1:35-1:45 at 12:30/12:40, then 1:20-1:30 at 3:45/3:50. Unless she's waking before the E? Sorry if I'm being a bit slow! I do think from what you've said that you need to push the a times again. The average for this age is 1:45-2:00 so 1:30 is definately on the low side, that combined with 45min naps make me think she is undertired.

The FAQ also mentioned that NWs can be because of OT at bedtime

She could be, some babies can get in a bit of cycle of doing short naps because their awake times aren't long enough so they aren't tired enought to do any longer but then they get overtired by bedtime because of all the short naps and no long restorative ones (so 1.5hr+). OT night wakings tend to premidnight and very upset whereas early hours of the morning, relatively happy, long night wakings are usually UT at bedtime. Night wakings that are all over the place and frequent were almost always teething/illness or some other sort of discomfort/pain. Does any of that sound like whats going on?

Sorry lots of questions!

Posted with Katherine, wonderful advice from her as always ;-)

[Itsjustbecca]

Jessmum46: naps she still needs some patting and I put the pacifier in a couple of times but she always falls asleep in her crib. She is a superstar at BT (possibly because she's a little OT, I don't know). I do our routine (feed, book if she's not too OT, diaper, swaddle, lullaby, in her crib with pacifier) and once she's in the crib she'll toss her head a little, the pacifier usually falls out, she fusses a little, I put the pacifier back in (she even sometimes skips this) I hear her toss a little and then she's out. Even though she is often wide-eyed when I put her down. This is why I'm so surprised by the NWs, because she goes to bed so well on her own.

I never wake her from her naps and sometimes she'll stretch it to 3:15 or 3:30 since E on her own, but usually she's up at 3 hours on the dot. I keep hoping since she does this sometimes she'll stretch out her EASY on her own, bit now I'm starting to think I need to take a more active roll in that.

Brummum: I kind of figured I've his the 4-month sleep regression and am trying to figure out the BW of dealing with it. The only prop I need to use to get her to sleep is her pacifier (I don't love it, but I had such a hard time getting her to sleep I gave in and it is now a definite prop). If she would fall back asleep as soon as I pop the pacifier in it would make sense to me, but that only sometimes works with the 45 min naps and never works with the NW.

She goes down on her own with a pacifier as I described above. No distinct pattern yet, last night she didn't have a non eating wake up until 6:30am, but other nights she starts at 11 and is up every hour or 2. She might be teething, but I feel like such an amateur mom, she's always been touchy, so I don't know how to tell if her fuss is because of teething or other pain. I figured because she falls asleep almost as soon as I pick her up and hold her that it isn't a medical/pain issue. I should mention that she FINALLY pooped yesterday after 20 days and, although she was ok, happy and healthy, I think the no pooping was making her gassy. That might have been waking her. Now that she finally pooped maybe things will get better, we will see.

About the EASY I posted, sometime at 2 or all 3 of her naps she will wake up around the 45 mark and I try together her back to sleep. About 75% of the time I'm successful but it's getting harder to get her back to sleep.

Thanks for that last bit of info, it's a great summary. The NW might be because of discomfort. I started dressing her warmer for bed and we were ok for a couple of nights, but then they returned. As I mentioned before now that she finally pooped I will be able to tell if that was causing some of our problems.

I'm going to look over the 3.5/4 hour transition link again (and I just found where my husband put my BWSAYP so I can look through it again). I might have some questions about it so I'll probably post another reply here when I have a chance.

[brummum]

If she would fall back asleep as soon as I pop the pacifier in it would make sense to me, but that only sometimes works with the 45 min naps and never works with the NW.

Yeah, we had to wean dummy at 4-5 months due to frequent night wakings for a replug but if she's not going back to sleep quickly when it's popped back in it sounds like there is something else going on doesn't there?

last night she didn't have a non eating wake up until 6:30am, but other nights she starts at 11 and is up every hour or 2

Erratic frequent night wakings were almost always discomfort or illness with our little guy. Have you tried meds? do they help at all? I'm totally with you on having trouble reading your little one, mine was a touchy textbook baby and people used to ask me 'is he teething?' and I'd be thinking I haven't got a clue! He was generally very fussy and for various reasons - developmental milestones, overstimulation, overtired, teething... just because! Its really hard with touchies to figure out what the issue is sometimes so don't feel like a bad mom!

I figured because she falls asleep almost as soon as I pick her up and hold her that it isn't a medical/pain issue.

Have you tried holding her to calm her but making sure that you put her back down before she drifts off just to make sure the holding isn't becoming a prop for her?

sometime at 2 or all 3 of her naps she will wake up around the 45 mark and I try together her back to sleep. About 75% of the time I'm successful but it's getting harder to get her back to sleep.

this all say undertired to me so I really think increasing those awake times again is the way to go.

Good luck hon. Keep us posted.

[Itsjustbecca]

So it seems my little girl heard us talking She's been extending her naps past the 3hr (eating) mark on her own. I need to work on getting to the 2 hr awake time, she's not happy unless she's constantly moving or I'm entertaining her, so its hard. Thankfully she likes the baby carrier and we've been doing lots of walks in the stroller (I should be in great shape soon! I'm even thinking maybe I need to take up jogging since I'm out walking with her so often).

Here is our EASY from yesterday to give you an idea of how things are going (the day before yesterday was also similar):

Overnight: woke at 12:15am, took 10 min to her her back to sleep. woke to eat at 3:25am. woke again at 4:45am, would go back to sleep to I nursed her at 5:15 and she fell back asleep.

Woke up and E 8:40am (she went to bed late, so later than usual wakeup made sense)
S 10:25am
WU: 11:10 - She was awake and smiley so I unswadled her and sat beside her crib talking with her. Once she got fussy after 10 min I reswaddled and gave her the pacifier and after a couple minutes she fell back asleep
S 11:25
E 12:15 (3.5 hrs!)
S 2:00
WU 2:31
S 2:40
E 4:00 (3.75 hrs!)
S 6:00
E 6:40 (I didn't try to get her back to sleep because it was only 1.5hours until bed time)
E 7:55 (since I still have night feeds I don't want to drop the 2 feeds in the evening, does that make sense?)
S 8:30 (I started putting her down as 8:15, but she was not tired enough, but I'm trying to get her back to her 8:00 BT)

WU Midnight but fell asleep after 5 minutes of patting and giving the pacifier (I think UT so she never really settled well at BT)
Woke to eat: 3:15am and 6:15am

So far today:
WU & E: 8:10
S 10:10
WU 11:00 but fell back asleep easily with a replug
and at 11:30 she's still fast asleep. (so almost 3.5 hrs since she ate)

Have you tried holding her to calm her but making sure that you put her back down before she drifts off just to make sure the holding isn't becoming a prop for her?

Definitely tried and will continue to try. For the naps I sometimes give in because I don't want the rest of the day to be messed up because of a short nap. I have not needed to the past 2 days, so hopefully I'm making some progress.

'm totally with you on having trouble reading your little one, mine was a touchy textbook baby and people used to ask me 'is he teething?' and I'd be thinking I haven't got a clue! He was generally very fussy and for various reasons - developmental milestones, overstimulation, overtired, teething... just because! Its really hard with touchies to figure out what the issue is sometimes so don't feel like a bad mom!

Exactly! She fusses as anything so its so hard to read, I feel for teeth every day and always feel for a fever when she wakes up at night. We have a Dr. appointment next week, so if we are still having NWs then I'll talk to him about it. Especially if she still is very gassy. It also just started getting cold here at night (though its still warm during the day) so I'm trying to dress her warmer at night, I know being cold could also be the discomfort.

[brummum]

E 6:40 (I didn't try to get her back to sleep because it was only 1.5hours until bed time)

I wouldn't worry about trying to get her back to sleep for this one, usually you are trying for 2 long naps and an afternoon cat nap of 45 mins aprox at this age. I'm glad things are moving in the right direction, I would continue gradually pushing up her awake times to try and help her with nap transitions.

[Itsjustbecca]

Well, it looks like we're in full out 4 month sleep regression. This weekend was pretty bad, she was up every hour sometimes taking 10-20 mins to get back to sleep (which feels like ETERNITY at 2am). Last night she was up every 1-2 hours but was a little easier to get back to sleep. I'm SO sick of people telling me I need to let her cry (a lot of our friends and then the pediatrician today kindly explained Ferberizing even when I told him I'm not interested), but I'm not 100% where to go from here.

Am I naive to think things will get better on their own without more ST. Right now when she wakes I just sit with her giving her her pacifier, sometimes put a hand on her chest until she settles (except I still feed her at 2 & 5). I do jump out of bed as soon as she starts to fuss or whine, should I at least be waiting until it's a real cry before going into her room? I always worry she'll be harder to settle if I let her get to a real cry. I have not needed to pick her up and hold her and she still doings pretty well going to sleep on her own at bed time (with a pacifier) which gives me a lot of hope.

I'm so appreciative for the support on this forum. It's so hard having everyone tell us to CC/CIO....

[brummum]

I do jump out of bed as soon as she starts to fuss or whine, should I at least be waiting until it's a real cry before going into her room?

Yes, I know it's hard and I had exactly the same instinct as you (I still go in a little bit too soon I think if i'm honest) but the risk you run with going in earlier is that they may actually be trying to settle themselves or at least learning how to without your help so jumping in right away just reinforces them needing you to fall back to sleep.

What are her awake times like now? Is she getting any better at transitions during naps or is she needing your help still? I have to say waking up this frequently was exactly what happened for us at this age and we ended up needing to wean his dummy (with help from the lovely ladies here) and things improved dramatically so I think if you have done what you can with her routine it may be worth considering this. The only other things that has caused this amount night waking for our guy is illness or teething. Could either of those be the case? Are you medicating at all? Does it help?

You don't have to CIO and CC hon. Be strong. I know it's exhausting, I have been there (and still am on occassions) but they're not the answer.